Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-April-05

This is the chat from our meeting on 5th March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, Ramac

15:30 - Daan joined 15:30 Hi Erkan 15:33 ciao Daan 15:33 - Ramac joined 15:34 I don't know 15:34 ciao Ramac 15:34 Hi Ramac

15:37 so, lets begin ? 15:38 Okay. 15:38 I didn't read all, was stopped due to time at start of Diodotus' speech, but I know about what he says 15:38 so, post the agenda please 15:39 How did you know about Diodotus? 15:39 Ramac - you are in ? 15:39 Because of the book you read? 15:39 I created articles about him in Wikipedia :-) 15:39            * The bad leadership of Alcidas, sailing too slow, killing neutrals, not taking a risk, but rather going home. 15:39             * Democracy at work: Cleon versus Diodotus. Cleon could be described as a conservative and Diodotus as a liberal. Cleon defends terror and Diodotus defends free speech and carefull analysis. 15:39             * The speech of Diodotus compared to other speeches so far. 15:39 <Daan>                  o Diodotus versus Archidamus Book I, aphorisms 80-85. Archidamus has a different kind of 'conservatism' than Cleon, defending not to change anything. 'Real conservatism', so to say. 15:39 <Daan>                  o Diodotus versus Pericles Book II, Aphorisms 60-64. Pericles is positive about the wealthy, while Diodotus is clearly negative. 15:39 <Daan>            * Cleon mentions the Sophists in his text and is negative about them. 15:39 <Daan>Here are some points i wrote this afternoon. 15:39 <Daan>points. 15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:Diodotus_%28son_of_Eucrates%29 15:40 <Daan>So, Diodotus aligned with Pericles? 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it seems 15:40 <Daan>alligned 15:40 <Daan>I could assume something about this. 15:41 <Daan>No, it is too complicated. 15:41 * Erkan_Yilmaz reads agenda 15:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>read 15:42 <Daan>I didn't make a summary this time, but just wrote the things that i find interesting. 15:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is fine 15:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we can make the summary here 15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so lets start with Alcidas

Mythilenean situation
15:43 <Daan>After the speech of Diodotus, nothing really happens apart from that Pachus nearly killed the Lesbians, but they were saved in the last moment. 15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok lets do that 15:44 <Daan>My analysis about Alcidas: he was too inexpreinced and his fleet as well. 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, how fate can save or not save sometimes is interesting 15:44 <Daan>Yes. 15:44 <Daan>I thought about hippies, strangely enough when i read that text. 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hippies ? 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>why is this ? 15:45 <Daan>Because they were saved at the last moment, love conquers all. 15:45 <Daan>:-) 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am not sure if the Athenians really loved them :-) 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably they loved the money which they will bring when they survive 15:45 <Daan>Well, they felt sorry for them, so they didn't kill them. 15:46 <Daan>Okay, this doesn't sound like love. 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well there is also one-sided love like: 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>masochist 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the masochist loves to .... 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from that point it could be seen as love 15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>first bring them fear and pain 15:47 <Daan>Hippie love is not masochistic. 15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 15:47 <Daan>Did you see the Beatle film All you need is love? 15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>nope 15:47 <Daan>It is really great. 15:48 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks in Wikipedia 15:48 <Daan>but completely unrelated to Thucydides. 15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah ok, then I will postpone this to later 15:49 <Daan>No, the song was in the film. 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so most of the people of Mythilene were saved 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but they lost their freedom to past times 15:50 <Daan>Yes.

Cleon + Pericles
15:50 <Daan>Thucydides sides with Diodotus instead of Cleon. 15:50 <Daan>He calls Cleon cruel. 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I assume Thucydides does not like Cleon much 15:50 <Daan>Well, he doesn't like cruelty. 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Cleon was mostly against Pericles 15:52 <Daan>Yes? 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and since Thucydides favors Pericles could be perhaps of this ? 15:52 <Daan>You know more than i do. 15:52 <Daan>Yes. 15:53 <Daan>What was the difference between Cleon and Pericles? 15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they came from different socials 15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles came from an aristocratic family 15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Cleon's father e.g. had a tannery 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and became from that rich 15:54 <Daan>okay 15:54 <Daan>But, was their political difference? 15:54 <Daan>what was 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Cleon: seems to have been: demagogue, advocate of war, vulgarian 15:55 <Daan>Aha 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles was in the "moderate" faction 15:56 <Daan>While Pericles wants to do what is best to keep the empire.

Pericles and Diodotus
15:56 <Daan>But there is a difference between Pericles and Diodotus. 15:56 <Daan>It resembles in their speeches. 15:56 <Daan>Diodotus has a different mindset. 15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>tell me, didnt read Diodotus' speech 15:57 <Daan>I will take two quotes, but it will take a moment. 15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 16:00 <Daan>I can't find the quotes of Pericles in which he speaks about the wealth of Athens. 16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let me see 16:02 <Daan>Diodotus says: "For poverty inspires necessity with daring; and wealth engenders avarice in pride and insolence" aphorism 45 16:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>II 65, but let's continue here 16:03 <Daan>Both Diotdotus and Pericles try to maintain an empire. 16:03 <Daan>Diodotus 16:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the poor have nothing to lose and dare to do anything to get their situation improved ? 16:04 <Daan>Yes. 16:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and rich try to maintain it 16:04 <Daan>Nope. 16:04 <Daan>Rich are proud and greedy. 16:05 <Daan>They see there proud in being greedy. 16:05 <Daan>So, the rich try to gain more. 16:05 <Daan>And are proud in the attempt to try to gain more. 16:06 <Daan>Insolence means being without shame. 16:06 <Daan>They are greedy, proud and shameless. 16:06 <Daan>While the poor are down to earth. 16:06 <Daan>They do what is needed to survive. 16:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I remember that in Pericles' speech P. tells that he didnt use the argument of wealth and predominance in the cause for the fight against Sparta in the speeches 16:06 <Daan>There is honesty in being poor. 16:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>his reason was: that Athenians don't get too overconfident 16:07 <Daan>Yes, perhaps it is good to see what Pericles said. 16:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and he uses it the first time to motivate them again 16:07 <Daan>Yes. 16:07 <Daan>He tries to influence the Athenians. 16:07 <Daan>The speech of Pericles is paternalistic. 16:07 <Daan>While Diodotus speaks his mind. 16:07 <Daan>Diodotus has less power compared to Pericles. 16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 16:08 <Daan>So, his way of inlfuencing the Athenians is more honest? 16:08 <Daan>I don't know. 16:09 <Daan>Pericles tries to get the Athenians to defend there state and uses words for this purpose. 16:09 <Daan>Diodotus is perhaps more focused on long-term setting of goals. 16:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably what also is influencing the mimic and gestic and sound of voice while doing the speeches, which we don't have info 16:10 <Daan>Yes. 16:10 <Daan>We need a timemachine ;-) 16:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>cool 16:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so you are telling Pericles was not longterm oriented ? 16:10 <Daan>Than we can learn the Greeks about internet. 16:11 <Daan>Well, he tries to influence the athenians to take the right decision at a certain moment. 16:11 <Daan>Diodotus has less power. He has to stop an action, which Pericles would have prevented in the first place. 16:12 <Daan>I see Diodotus as a defender of liberal values. 16:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also the situations is a little different: in the one speech of Pericles: it is immediate danger to Athens from a direct enemy - in D. situation Athens already has power and can decide as winner over the "sheep" 16:13 <Daan>Yes. 16:13 <Daan>I have to look at that again. 16:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>(immediate danger meaning: the morale of Athens have sunk and they want also peace negotiations with Sparta, which Sparta declines) 16:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one prob also is: we know a lot of Pericles, but about Diodotus there is not so much sources :-( 16:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>could have been that in that moment he had also different goals - like seeing that he had a chance to triumph over Cleon in a debate which could have helped rise in more power for him ? 16:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because teh mood in Athens favored the next day to not punish the Mythilineans so hard, so he could have used this perhaps ? 16:16 <Daan>Well, personality shows also in the way a person tries to gain power. 16:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Pericles e.g. started his career by attacking verbally Kimon 16:16 <Daan>Cleon would probably never try to gain power by preventing a massacre from occuring. 16:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I assume in Athens you had to show that you are able to be verbally good rhetorician 16:17 <Daan>A good rhetorician is often the one who shares the opinion of the crowd. 16:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 16:17 <Daan>So, that is a bit of disbelief of mine with Pericles and Diodotus. 16:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, it is a good point

future of this reading group
16:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we can do this as todo for the next cycles of discussion 16:18 <Daan>What do you mean? 16:18 <Daan>:-) 16:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in the chat logs there is always a section called: todo - who ever reads the chats again, has a way to add the info we didn't have or didn't pursue at that time, because we have a certain amount of time for the chats 16:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and next cycles means: later on people will profit from the chats 16:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they can build on what is written there, improve it, use it for their works 16:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I can imagine to read the chats in a few months again and smile like: ah, I missed this point 16:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or: interesting: why did I think like this and not like that ? 16:20 <Daan>I don't know, Erkan. 16:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, it is a vision of mine, we will see what happens really

philosophy excursus
16:20 <Daan>I am a bit postmodernistic. 16:21 <Daan>Nietzsche says kill the teacher and start over again. 16:21 <Daan>The world is going down, time for a new world. 16:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, in that way I guess there would not so much knowledge transfered and some works have to be done again 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. one way of learning is done by showing others 16:22 <Daan>Suppose an incredible work of knowledge is buld on one presumption. 16:22 <Daan>And this presumption is wrong. 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because otherwise you would need more time to (ever) create the same learning level 16:22 <Daan>Than the whole work of knowledge falls down. 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true, but it is often times easier to find an error when you see something build: if you don't have something you first have to do 16:22 <Daan>I can give you a historical event. 16:23 <Daan>In the 18th century, German printers tried to sabatoge the encyclopedia. 16:23 <Daan>Why? 16:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>was this about the French encyclopedia ? 16:23 <Daan>Because the enycclopedia would summarize all knowledge, making books unnecessary. 16:24 <Daan>Blaise Pascal already knew better.

16:26 <Daan>Well, the german version (answer to your question) 16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi 16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, if someone doesn't want to have previous knowledge, he is not forced to use it 16:26 <Daan>That is right. 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have a link to this encyclopedia issue ? 16:27 <Daan>But there are so many books, why is our reading group a fresh start. 16:27 <Daan>We are standing on giants. 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, the shoulders of giants 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the reading group: when considering for me personally first: 16:28 <Daan>I think i read it on Wikipedia, but it was a few years ago. 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>a means to get me going with the topic Thucydides 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and when seeing it not only interior: 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>a means to get others approaching to the topic 16:29 - Ramac quited 16:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we don't discuss all in detail like e.g. a book would do 16:29 <Daan>That is right. 16:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but this reading group can also motivate others, sometimes you just need a little push to start something 16:29 <Daan>But we do something good: 16:29 <Daan>the universities have become too specialized. 16:30 <Daan>Internet can make people less passive and actively work with knowledge. 16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>internet: yes

language
16:30 <Daan>University language often is not understandable even for academics. 16:31 <Daan>That a text is not understandable says nothing about the value of it. 16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>language: I guess that is always depenedent on the person using the language, if there is a person making it right one knows the difference 16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the problem with specific language is: 16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>1. it makes it faster for people using the language to communicate 16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>2. but contradictory it makes it harder for externals to participate 16:33 <Daan>1 is right. 16:33 <Daan>2 is right as well. 16:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you could say the language is an identity of a group which distinguishes them as group 16:33 <Daan>But 1, what is the value of participating. 16:33 <Daan>? 16:34 <Daan>Yes, but some things in it are unvoluntary. 16:34 <Daan>You can be raised with a language against your will. 16:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 16:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. done on several revolutions 16:35 <Daan>And it takes an enormous effort to learn a language. The moment you take the decision to learn a language, the moments after it you are the slave of your own decision. 16:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when new people get to power they change the language to influence people's minds 16:35 <Daan>But they fool themselves. 16:35 <Daan>These people were influenced before they choose to try to influence others. 16:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>just a question: is there ever someone who is not nfluenced ? 16:36 <Daan>It depends on the language to describe the word influence. 16:36 <Daan>:-) 16:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I give an example 16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I could define: language is my dog who sleeps beside my feet at the moment 16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and since you dont kow that definition we would be talking about comepletely different things :-) 16:37 <Daan>That is right. 16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and then we would have to start to get to know our definitions 16:37 <Daan>But maybe i understand the defintion outside the world of words. 16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which costs time, but certainly brings many advantages 16:37 <Daan>definition 16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you assume you understand :-) 16:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. imagine 16:38 <Daan>Yeah, imagine. 16:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when today someone would appear and tell he is Jesus I guess they would put him into psychiatric treatment 16:38 <Daan>Imagining is important in German philosophy. 16:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>agree 16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>is important actually for many things 16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but society normally doesn't support it much (though they say they do) 16:39 <Daan>Gnostic texts say that you are Jesus when you hear the word Jesus. 16:39 <Daan>So, than the crazy guy isn't crazy. 16:39 <Daan>He learned the word Jesus and decided he is him. 16:40 <Daan>Society is only a word. :-) 16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think many tings are words where people would have a problem to describe, they then describe the appearances instead the definition 16:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and that is probably because they either didn't think of the term or didn't use it in their life so far to take thoughts 16:41 <Daan>But, all words are invented, in my view. 16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but you need them, otherwise your life gets more complicated, because you must define them first, though the advantage of defining them again with others is: 16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you discuss again 16:42 <Daan>The world consists out of atoms, everything else is imagination (Greek philosophy from the sophists) 16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in todays - fast behaving - society this is demanded (Erkan wonders if he makes now this :-( or this :-) smiley) 16:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably we are just dreaming right now our existence and we are just a thought by something else 16:43 <Daan>That would be great! 16:43 <Daan>Berkeley, i presume. 16:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which Berkeley ? 16:44 <Daan>The philosopher. 16:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so my dear Daan 16:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we turned the history into some metaphysical discussion 16:44 <Daan>I am looking at Wikipedia 16:44 <Daan>That is right. 16:45 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley 16:45 <Daan>I am too much philisophical. 16:45 <Daan>philosophical 16:47 <Daan>Berkeley is of a similar opinion as Pascal and Nietzsche in this matter. 16:47 <Daan>See his biography.

todo

 * differences with Diodotus and Pericles