Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-February-2

This is the chat from our meeting on 2nd February 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Dank55, Erkan Yilmaz, pietrodn, remote, Turelion, Viele-baeren

getting to know each other
You are now in #thucydides Topic: Welcome! We are reading at the moment http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Thucydides:_The_Peloponnesian_War Herzlich Willkommen! Wir lesen zur Zeit von Thukydides: http://de.wikiversity.org/wiki/Kurs:Der_Peloponnesische_Krieg

14:01 - pietrodn joined 14:01 hi pietrodn 14:01 hi pietrodn 14:01 hi all 14:01 ok, should I start with introducing my self ? 14:02 ok 14:02 I am active at de. and en.WV and together with Daan (he is not yet here and did not react on the mail :- we have started this reading group 14:02 let's start :-) 14:02 we had 2-3 meetings and some visitors joining 14:02 but the core is Daan and me 14:02 reading for editing the resource on en.wv? 14:03 yes, that would be one nice outcome, though we can edit many stuff e.g. also on WP 14:03 there are many things possible 14:03 I read mostly a German Thucydides translation 14:03 and I have secondary literature in ENG 14:04 wow 14:04 I see that on en.wv there is the entire resource... why it isn't on Wikisource instead? 14:04 which resource ? 14:04 I think we just have links ? 14:04 the entire text of thucidides 14:04 do you have the link ? 14:05 I though text is just on wikisource + elsewhere 14:05 sorry, it is on wikisource 14:05 it's non an itnernal link 14:05 yes, today I also met someone at WS who said we can make a link here to gather more attraction: 14:06 http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal_talk:Reading_groups#public_domain_texts 14:06 but that is for the future 14:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so far we are about aphorism 1-50 14:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it is no problem to talk about the first ones (since I haven't read them lately :- 14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do one of you know already something about the Peloponnesian War ? 14:07 Yes, I know the first phase 14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>cool 14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>remote: what about you ? 14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you just joined because you saw there was a meeting or ? 14:07 "archedamical"? I don't know how it's called in English... 14:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the archidamian war 14:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>431-421 BC 14:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietro - where did you get to know the Peloponnesian War ? 14:09 no i'm a lurker 14:09 Erkan_Yilmaz: at school, we're studying it 14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>super, lurkers are welcome here 14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietro - oh really ? 14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to how much extent ? 14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hours per week ? 14:10 * Erkan_Yilmaz does not remember anymore doing this in school 14:10 3-4 hours of history per week 14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wow, impressing 14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>is this normal ? 14:11 - Dank55 joined 14:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello Dank55 14:11 <Dank55>hello/hallo 14:11 Erkan_Yilmaz: I attend this school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liceo_scientifico 14:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we are just about to start the meeting 14:11 (PNI) 14:11 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks 14:12 I'm at the first year 14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well we had in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29 only 1,5 h per week 14:13 <Dank55>your english is quite good, pietrodn 14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and then later in 12th + 13th class I took as major history (besides maths, english and sports) 14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn you know Dank55 ? he is an active robotics interested person 14:14 No, I don't know him. 14:14 Dank55: :-) 14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: Dank55 is not the Daan I mean 14:14 (Now I know him :-P ) 14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 14:14 <Dank55>yes...and i'm also, apparently, to get the WP people to be more tolerant of the needs of roboticists...that's a harder accomplishment, and a greater one :) 14:14 <Dank55>the first to get, i mean 14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well sounds to me like one way the old ancient people do when they are gathering in their meetings to decide about some important action 14:15 <Dank55>but...i am distracted from thudydides...i am a bit busy but i will listen in 14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank55 cool - you are like remote (he said he will be lurking :-) ) 14:16 <Dank55>i read herodotus in college (in greek...i have forgotten my greek), and a little thucydides 14:16 * Erkan_Yilmaz can not speak Greek :-( 14:17 * pietrodn can't speak Greek, too 14:17 * remote lurks some more 14:18 * Erkan_Yilmaz loves remote

starting
14:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so pietrodn how should we begin ? 14:19 I think we should begin with the conflict between Athens and Sparta 14:19 The different POV of the society 14:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 14:20 Athens is democratic, Sparta is aristocratic 14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean like: Spartans with their oligarchic system and Athens with their democratic polis ? 14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 14:20 yes 14:20 <Dank55>spartans had much in common with the beginnings of the roman empire, 14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, how is this ? example ? 14:21 <Dank55>there was a sense that life was hard, every citizen owed a debt, and not much more should be expected from life 14:21 <Dank55>they had great pride in their ability to endure suffering 14:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting, I guess this was also for Athens in one way or ? that they would do anything for their polis 14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>though they were richer 14:22 Erkan_Yilmaz: they were richer because of the Delian League 14:22 <Dank55>not every athenian was idealistic...in fact most weren't...but there was great pride in the athenians who were idealistic, who were thinkers and poets 14:22 <Dank55>the spartans thought that such an outlook was corrupting, dangerous 14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank: ah, I see 14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Delian League: well this was achieved because Sparta did not continue their expanison in asia minor and Athens could succeed there with their navy 14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta came back to their policy to restrict only on the Peloponnese 14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank: do you have some examples about this being not so many not idealistic ? 14:24 Athens made up a very imperialistic politic with the poleis of the Delian League... 14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean that they started to force them tributes or military resources for their help (somehow that reminds me of the mob/mafia :-) ) 14:25 yes, they were not so democratic in this sense 14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>indeed 14:26 An example of this is the isle of Melo. Melo was neutral, and Athens menaced Melo. 14:26 <Dank55>what we know about the golden age of greece is constructed from many artifacts (that is, things that archeologists dig up), but surprisingly little written material... 14:27 <Dank55>therefore, we have to make guesses that are not guaranteed to be accurate about the majority of greeks, 14:27 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks up where Melos lies 14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melos 14:27 <Dank55>but the artifacts suggest that most saw themselves as simple farmers or warriors, with a few merchants 14:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melos 14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I see the island is pretty much out of reach 14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the other islanders probably were just self-interested or there was no more naval power available in that region (other naval powers were Corinth, Corcyra, ...) 14:28 Every polis had to be with Athens, or with Sparta. 14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank55 I have read that things on so called steles are there 14:28 The could not be neutral. 14:28 *they 14:29 <Dank55>yes, steles are useful 14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and how are books like the ones from Herodot or Homer survive the centuries ? because they are copied many times ? 14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn - yes, obey the strong ones to survive 14:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the small islanders might have thought perhaps: the strong ones can do what they like as long as it does not interfere with our freedom and if so, then we are in a bad situation 14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as I see, Sparta's inactivity on expansion in these areas gave Athens the possibility to expand 14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what about Persia ? they probably had also bad feelings to Athen's expansion 14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean having cities in Asia Minor (on Persia's territory) 14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but since they were beaten, not much to do for them until their time came 14:32 Persia and Athens were not in war, they signed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Callias 14:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so they had some kind of agreement which allowed Athens to expand 14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Athens expands and expands and some people do not like this for some reasons 14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and to come to Thucydides' book then there is this "incident" with Epidamnos 14:38 - Viele-baeren joined 14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello Viele-baeren 14:38 Hi Viele-baeren. 14:38 <Viele-baeren>hi Erkan_Yilmaz 14:38 <Viele-baeren>hi pietrodn 14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>guys may I introduce Viele-baeren from the German Wikibooks 14:39 <Viele-baeren>Erkan_Yilmaz: no, im not really active there. I am ABF@commonswiki 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, I see - and do you know something about the Peloponnesian War ? 14:39 <Viele-baeren>hi all of you :) 14:39 - Turelion joined 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wow another one 14:39 Hello Turelion. 14:39 <Turelion>Hi 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Turelion 14:39 <Viele-baeren>Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, learned a bit about it in year 6 of history 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great 14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>actually today all people here in this meeting are new 14:40 <Viele-baeren>but i forgott nearly everything :( 14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it is a great opportunity to begin fresh 14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>where is Dank55 and remote again ? 14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you are here ? 14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Turelion do you know the Peloponnesian War ? 14:41 <Dank55>i'm more remote than remote is :) 14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha 14:41 :-D

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14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Viele-baeren - so you would like to participate today - in some kind of form ? we just talked shortly about the situation of Athens with the expansion

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14:42 <Turelion>Erkan_Yilmaz, not exactly, I guess it is the time after the persian wars (eg. seafight of salamis) and before Alexander the great 14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is about 431-404 BC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peloponnesian_War

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14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so where were we with the Peloponnesian War again ? 14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens is expanding and obviously some people do not like this

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14:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn should we continue e.g. like with the Epidamnos conflict, so others can join fresh with the book ? 14:49 I don't know what the Epidamnos conflict is... 14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the incident where Corinth and Corcyra fight over and this involves Athens into it 14:50 * Erkan_Yilmaz is searching a WP link

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14:58 Erkan_Yilmaz: At the beginning it was not a real war, Athens and Sparta embarked on disturb actions 14:58 Athens was stronger on the sea, and Sparta was stronger on the earth 14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, it began with not directly them but their allies 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and they actually divided their territories regarding their abilities 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it could perhaps be said that their allies (e.g. Corinth) drove them ultimately to war 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or the war-liking factions in Sparta and Athens 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>though Thucydides tells that Sparta's fear of Athenian power growth lead to it 15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one of the catalysators: the incident about Epidamnos Durr%C3%ABs which lead also to: Battle of Sybota 15:00 <ABFbot>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%25C3%25ABs#Greek_foundation 15:00 <ABFbot>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sybota?redirect=no

history often directly results from geography
15:01 <Turelion>I have once learned, that history often directly results from geography, and I think ancient greece is a good example. 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, you can elaborate on this more ? 15:02 <Turelion>Of course, I just waited on your question ;-) 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so I should ask you more then ? 15:02 <Turelion>greece is a country full of hills, which part effictively all the regions. 15:03 <Turelion>So ancient greece became a land full of differencies 15:03 <Turelion>Athen, the city of wisdom 15:03 <Turelion>Sparta, the city of war 15:03 <Turelion>Corinth, the city of trade 15:04 <Turelion>Delphi, the city of religion 15:04 <Turelion>and i think, you can find other examples 15:04 <Turelion>Persia was much greater, but from east to the west it was far more the same. 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens' soil was indeed not so good which as it says in Thucydides made it ideal for people to join them (because they were not in trouble by others who wanted their land) and which lead probably to the naval activities to get grains from the black sea 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I guess Corinths position in between Peloponnes and other Greece made it ideal for bypassers 15:05 <Turelion>That is another thing, which helps my thesis: To Greece belong lots of insulas and penninsulas 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:704px-Greece_topo.jpg 15:06 <Turelion>Greece was great at sea 15:06 <Turelion>sea 15:06 <Turelion>sea 15:06 <Turelion>Seefahrt 15:06 <Turelion>Sailing? 15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>seafaring 15:06 <Turelion>Thanks 15:07 <Turelion>Also because of their geography 15:07 <Turelion>But, back to the war 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so Athens and Corinth and Corcyra were good with their navy (Athens + Corinth being in the same region) 15:07 <Turelion>Greece was predestinated to develop more than one dominating cultures 15:08 <Turelion>And one day this had to lead to war. 15:08 <Turelion>Did I make myself clear? 15:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, you are saying like: that they could develop undisturbed though to their geographic situations and when they want to expand they reach the freedom borders of others - like this ? 15:09 <Turelion>Yes, I think, thats it. 15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, makes sense 15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>at the begin of Thucydides it is also told that the barbarians always came into Greece and dispelled the previous owners of land since they had no fortifications and such and e.g. Athens due to its bad soil could be spared from such and involve not so much in the lifestyle by sword 15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and e.g. Lesbos and Chios since Islands were also not harmed by intruders and could develop a good navy 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and since the entrance to Peloponnes is also "guarded" by some cities this also makes it with less intruders into their (though they have other internal probs) 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so their are several powers developing Greece 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>there 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I shoudl really look more on my typos :-) 15:14 <Turelion>^^

plague of Athens
15:14 Should we discute on the pestilence in Athens on 429 BC? 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean the plague ? 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>o, why not 15:15 yes 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>dont know much so about it - just heard that Thucydides describes it in detail, but I did not read the paragraph itself yet 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it could enhance to such an extent because of the many people inside of the walls ? 15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as I read quite many people died 15:16 my History teacher gave us the text of Thucidides, but there weren't enough copies... I don't have one at the moment 15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we could find it in wikisource I am sure 15:17 Erkan_Yilmaz: Pericles packed the population of Athens inside the city, so the plague spread quickly 15:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah I read once that even sanctuaries were not spared to fill people in there 15:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I wonder if Pericles also thought of this happening ?

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15:21 Erkan_Yilmaz: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_2#Second_Year_of_the_War_-_The_Plague_of_Athens_-_Position_and_Policy_of_Pericles_-_Fall_of_Potidaea I read this today 15:21 (in Italian) 15:21 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks 15:22 Erkan_Yilmaz: Pericles didn't know how to avoid plague 15:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did they have such bad sanitary devices ? because I guess with ships they could bring much food (with vitamins) or probably not all people inside the city could afford that and from there it spread ? 15:25 Erkan_Yilmaz: I think the Greeks didn't know how to cure plague, they didn't isolate the ill people 15:25 but they was a lot solidal, even with the plague 15:25 *were 15:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>isolating: wouldn't people do this automatically ? I mean people normally fear - so they would fear infection 15:27 <Turelion>I have once heard a story about troy: The people did not clean up their floor. They waited, until there was enough wastes lying on it. Then they made a new layer of plaster floor (german: Estrich) on it. 15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I also read that the plaque infected their army in other regions like this: they send troops from Athens and so this harmed them also 15:28 <Turelion>Troy was just around the corner, and just a few centuries before that. 15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Turelion - who knows perhaps they wanted the methane to warm their feet ? :-) 15:28 <Turelion>rofl 15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 15:28 Erkan_Yilmaz: Yes, they was scared, but some people wanted to cure the ill people... and got infected 15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is bad :-( 15:29 <Turelion>I wanted to say, that they perhaps did not have the knowledge 15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the plaque took many people, e.g. Pericles 15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but still Athens was in a condition to continue and Sparta did not use the opportunity to make a peace on favourable terms 15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps they thought that Athens could be destroyed completely after the plaque 15:32 Erkan_Yilmaz: the doctors were infected, because they tried to cure the plague 15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let me read the intro here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens don't know this section in Thucydides 15:35 1/3 of the Athens people died because of the plague 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>quite much 15:36 «Thucydides stated that people ceased fearing the law since they felt they were already living under a death sentence. Likewise people started spending money indiscriminately. Many felt they would not live long enough to enjoy the fruits of wise investment, while some of the poor unexpectedly became wealthy by inheriting the property of their relatives. It is also recorded that people refused to behave honourably because most did not expect to live 15:36 this is an important thing IMHO 15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess it is hard to imagine how it is since I was not in such a situation, but I guess this is a normal reaction to external factors (e.g the disease) ? 15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>since the disease makes no division after some kind of factor (e.g. wealth, young/old, male/female) it can have bad effects 15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine all necessary people die in the first wave and nobody with experience available 15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>people have to learn how to do their functions and would make mistakes 15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and as you said, the doctors got infected 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one way could be to bring in doctors from elsewhere with ships ? or perhaps they did not want to enter the danger zone ? 15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or a strict division of killing the infected - I mean in the course of the war they did many killings (also to people who already surrendered) 15:42 Erkan_Yilmaz: Nobody knew how to cure the plague... it's like our avian flu 15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well then another option is to leave the city - save the kids and females first :-) - and spread the disease to the rest of the world 15:43 uhm... it's not a good comparison 15:43 (mine) 15:43 :-D 15:43 it's not a good idea :-P 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, but somehow the plaque stopped 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you want to talk more on the effects of the disease or the time specifically ? 15:44 Erkan_Yilmaz: Thucidides ws infected, but he survived 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>on the disease itself I can not tell you much, would have to read the article 15:44 *was 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, if he would not have survived, how tragic for us 15:45 We can go on :-) 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but perhap somebody else would have written the history 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so another thing in mind: 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the Spartans did actually a good thing by besieging Athens :-) LOL 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to restrict it to a certain area only 15:46 :-P 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess the Spartan troops also fled 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they probably feared infections too 15:46 «The city-state of Sparta, and much of the eastern Mediterranean, was also struck by the disease.» 15:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is a good war weapon :-) 15:46 yes, but you can't control it! 15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true

outro
15:48 Erkan_Yilmaz: the next topic is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Nicias ? Or there are other important events? 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Peace came 421 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you just missed 10 years of war :-) 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am privately starting with the Peace of Nicias soon 15:50 :-D 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in the course itself we were at Book1, 1-50 (50-100) 15:50 Erkan_Yilmaz: At school we didn't study so much details 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but since we are the two only talking right now (besides Turelion chipping in) we can cover many other events 15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so until the Peace of Nicias I can give you some input with facts and for the other I would have to assume what might be probable 15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. from the time 431-421 there was: 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps we can find a timeline 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one mom 15:53 there was Cleone 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>here is one graphical: http://www.timelines.info/history/conflict_and_war/ancient_wars_and_conflicts/peloponnesian_wars/ 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>should we follow this one ? 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>death of Pericles is because of the plague in Athens so that we covered :-) 15:55 wow, that's a cool timeline 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but it misses some events 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and also would be good if with a click it goes to a page with more info 15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who knows in the course of this project we could build such a time line 15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or we find a better one 15:56 we can create one with EasyTimeline :-P 15:56 It's not very easy, though. 15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>looks nice: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EasyTimeline 15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as I see it is available in WV: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:Version 15:59 yeah, I've used it for representing a piece of the history of criptography, but i don't remember the syntax now. http://it.wikibooks.org/wiki/Utente:Pietrodn/Sandbox 16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 16:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so pietrodn - what do we do now ? we could continue or make it stop for now (we have already 2h) ? did you like the meeting ? what about you Turelion - wanna join also other meetings ? 16:02 Now I'm going to stop - I should make my homework 16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok - what about you Turelion ? 16:03 <Turelion>Erkan_Yilmaz, no, sorry, at the moment my mind deals to much with programming 16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw guys: what do you think on making this chat publically available ? so other interested persons can see what we did ? 16:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I would remove material not to do with the Peloponnesian War 16:04 Erkan_Yilmaz: you have my authorization to publish the log of this chat 16:05 :-) 16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also send you what is going to be made available before publishing 16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx pietrodn 16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Turelion - what do you say ? 16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank55 remote Viele-baeren - what do you say ? 16:05 * Viele-baeren away 16:10 <Turelion>I'm content with publishing the chat-log 16:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx Turelion 16:18 <Dank55>you have my authorization 16:18 <Dank55>in fact, i feel strongly that everyone should read my magnificent thoughts 16:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great 16:19 <Dank55>(that was humor, in case there are people here whose english is not good) 16:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 16:21 <Dank55>what was the plague, possibly the black death (yersinia pestis)? 16:21 <Dank55>or smallpox? 16:21 <Turelion>There are 29 candidates for it. 16:21 <Dank55>wow 16:22 <Turelion>Including Ebola 16:23 - remote left 16:23 <Turelion>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attische_Seuche#Hypothesen 16:23 Dank55: black death

todo

 * build a time line