Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-March-01

This is the chat from our meeting on 1st March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: assassingr, Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, konstantinos

19:38 - Daan joined 19:39 hi Daan 19:39 Hi erkan 19:39 * Erkan_Yilmaz wonders where assassin is 19:40 Daan you know konstantinos ? 19:40 No. 19:40 he is first time here, so we should make a good impression :-) 19:40 Hi Konstantinos, i am Daan :-) 19:40 hello 19:40 hi 19:41 no need for good impression

19:43 so, we could also start until the others come by ? 19:44 Today the main subject will be war. 19:45 yes - konstantinos you are there ? 19:45 yes 19:45 should we start ? 19:45 Last times, despite of the subject The Peloponnesian War, there were a lot of topics that were not about warfare. 19:45 But, today it will be only about war. 19:46 so Daan you wanna post your topics again ? 19:46 I will. 19:47    * During the Spartan invasion of Attica, there is a conflict between commanders and followers. Followers are angry with the lack of initiative of the Commanders, Archidamus for Sparta and Pericles for Athens. Archidamus halted the advance in Attica, hoping for an Athenian surrender to the dismay of his army. Later on he advances into Attica, pillaging the most populated region, of which... 19:47 <Daan>Thucydides describes the first months of the war. 19:47 <Daan>   * The peace was broken by the Boeotians, who tried to regain a Boeotian city, Plataea, which was allied with Athens. Plataea was an enthusiastic ally of Athens and defeated Boeotian (Theban) forces. We can discuss the breach of the oath, after which Theban prisoners of war were killed. 19:47 <Daan>   * Most people in Greece were enthusiastic about the war and they supported Sparta, because Sparta was fighting for the freedom of the Greeks. 19:47 <Daan>...the inhabitants were now in Athens. Now Pericles is suffering from complaints of his followers. the athenians want to stop the sack of their lands and blame Pericles for not marching out to meet the enemy in battle. 19:47 <Daan>   * Athens is not being besieged, because the Spartan army runs out of supply. 19:47 <Daan>   * Athenians sack the Peloponnesian coast and take some Messenians on board of their ships. 19:47 <Daan>   * Speeches of Archidamus and Pericles. Archidamus wants his men to be afraid, so they are prepared for battle. A small army could defeat a large army if the large army is not prepared. Pericles makes the Athenians feel confident by stating that athens is well prepared with a lot of money and a large army and navy. 19:47 which one is most interesting 19:47 <Daan>Wat zeg je? 19:48 according to your opinion? 19:48 <Daan>Well, i just made a summary. 19:48 * Erkan_Yilmaz is still reading 19:48 <Daan>But, i think there are some small sentences that could be interesting. 19:48 <Daan>But, now i am suffering of a hanover and can't make my mind up. 19:49 <Daan>And remember 19:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then lets start at the begin and see where we spend most of the time ?

Plataea
19:49 <Daan>Lets start with Plataea 19:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 19:49 <Daan>The Greeks were pro-Sparta, but Plataea was pro-Athens. 19:50 <Daan>The Greeks wanted there own tiny states to be independent of Athens. 19:50 <Daan>But, Plataea was dependent of Boetia, Thebes. 19:50 <Daan>And, was allied to athens to be independent of the Boeotians. 19:50 <Daan>So, it says something about freedom. 19:50 <Daan>When are you free? 19:51 actually they where subdued to Athens 19:51 that means not free 19:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, so they had to pay tributes and other means 19:52 The big alliances were kept alive 19:52 <Daan>But, they didn't want to fight on the Spartan side. 19:52 with taxes 19:52 <Daan>And become part of Boeotia. 19:52 <Daan>The Thebans wanted to liberate them, but they chose athens out of their own free will. 19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wasn't there the oath by the Greeks that they told plataea to be free forever and protect them from slavery ? 19:53 Thebans I think were acting on Spartan side actually 19:53 <Daan>Yes, that is true. 19:53 <Daan>But, i don't know about what erkan said. 19:53 that means 19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or do I mix the city ? 19:53 <Daan>Erkan, was the oath made by Athens? 19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>was it Marathon ? 19:54 that they were endangering the city state 19:54 builted 19:54 <Daan>I don't know. 19:54 upon thw consensus of dempocratic way of living 19:54 <Daan>So, Plataea was democratic? 19:54 no city in Greece 19:54 was actually 19:55 democratic 19:55 according to this era model yes 19:55 <Daan>A bit democratic as opposed to oligarchy. 19:55 yes 19:55 <Daan>But, Athens was democratic? 19:55 no 19:56 <Daan>At least male citizens could vote. 19:56 even for the standards of this era 19:56 <Daan>How did it work then? 19:56 we know that for a population o 43.000 citizensxd 19:56 3.000 were voting actually 19:57 that means 19:57 <Daan>That is little indeed. 19:57 that even for athenian standards 19:57 <Daan>Those who worked, couldn't vote? 19:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about the oath: in 479 king Pausanias made the Greeks swear the oath to protect Platea 19:57 every decision 19:57 <Daan>Aha 19:57 was not based upon immidiate democracy 19:57 <Daan>Erkan, i saw it on Wikipedia. 19:58 <Daan>But, Pausanias was Spartan, not athenian. 19:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but was it not against the Persians, when they all foght against them ? 19:58 yes 19:58 <Daan>Ys, that is true. 19:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, Platea became on own will ally of Athens then ? or Athens forced them to join ? 19:59 i am afraid this oath belongs to another context 19:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well then let's go back to what you just discussed 19:59 there are two distinct periods of athenian hegemeny 19:59 hegemony 19:59 <Daan>4th and 3rd century? 19:59 first after the persian wars 20:00 arhenians declared their will 20:00 to protect cities states of greece 20:00 the secopnd part is worst 20:00 athenians are hegemones 20:00 that means rulers 20:00 <Daan>Yes. 20:01 and they use brutal force 20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so when Athens had more influence they became "corrupt" and misused their allies 20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>? 20:01 yes 20:01 <Daan>And Plataea was first protected by the oath and later on ruled by Athens? 20:01 absolutely 20:01 Yes 20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well they should have build their city in another area :-) 20:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>right at the border is quite tasty for both sides 20:02 - assassingr joined 20:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi assassingr 20:02 <Daan>Well, there is a context. Many city states that ought to be protected became lazy, according to the Athenians, and needed to be disciplined. Forced to supply a navy and an army. 20:02 <Daan>Hi Assassingr! 20:02 hi guys 20:02 τηατ ισ τηε ατηενιαν ποιντ οφ ωιες 20:03 :) 20:03 thats the athenian point of view 20:03 hi assassine 20:03 <Daan>I read the English translation. 20:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also: the cost for supplying ships and troops seemed higher and so they began to paying tributes instead and giving therefore more power (in military sense) to Athens 20:03 <Daan>I can't understand Greek. 20:03 * Erkan_Yilmaz doesnt know Greek also 20:04 <Daan>Shall we move on? 20:04 yeap 20:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok

Messenians seem to support Athens
20:04 <Daan>The Messenians seem to support Athens. 20:04 <Daan>I think. 20:05 that is natural 20:05 <Daan>Yes, they were slaves of Sparta. 20:05 they have a heavy conflict with spartansw 20:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>werent they because of that settled some time to Naupactos by Athens ? 20:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what was the conflict ? 20:05 <Daan>They entered the Athenian ships, according to the text. 20:05 <Daan>Sparta had occupied Messenian lands for centuries. 20:06 No Messenians were at times enslaved by spartans 20:06 that means 20:06 the pure reason 20:06 was their independence 20:06 <Daan>They wanted to be freed. 20:06 <Daan>Okay. 20:07 <Daan>But, also independence within their own territory. 20:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting, normally Sparta made allies "just" change their government structure - how were they different than the helots ? 20:07 <Daan>Slaves can run away and live somewhere else. 20:07 <Daan>Weren't the Messenians Helots? 20:07 they were perioikoi actually 20:07 most of them 20:07 <Daan>What are perioikoi? 20:07 people leaving around thew city 20:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periokoi 20:08 but have no citizenship 20:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I see 20:08 they are obliged though to go to the war 20:08 <Daan>Just like in the Athenians Empire. 20:09 <Daan>The Messenians had nothing to lose. 20:09 <Daan>Either one master or the other. 20:09 Yes 20:09 <Daan>But, the Athenians hadn't done anything wrong yet to them. 20:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably because they wanted allies in Peloponnesian territory ? :-) 20:10 to messenians? 20:10 <Daan>Yes, or less wrong? 20:10 <Daan>Erkan, the Athenians surely wanted that. 20:10 if you have a powerfull ally in the door step of your enemy

Persia as ally
20:11 <Daan>The text says that both Sparta and athens tried to get all the allies they could get. They both went to Persia. 20:11 then you create suspicion 20:11 that is true they went to persia 20:11 their big mistaker 20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but Persia didn't do much at begin of the Peloponnesian War or ? 20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I think the text says they wanted to send people to Persia 20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book II 7 20:12 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks 20:13 Persia had every reason to keep Greece divided 20:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting the German and ENG text are different in this passage 20:13 <Daan>Yes. It is the typical policy of a major empire. The Chinese did the same in Mongolia and the Romans in germany. 20:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the ENG text says they resolved to do 20:14 <Daan>Strange. 20:14 <Daan>Well, Konstantinos can say which text is right. 20:14 both came in contact with persia 20:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Chinese do this also in the normal business :-) the business chief has always a spy in the team - but nobody knows who the spy is 20:15 <Daan>Cool ;) 20:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true konstantinos can do this best 20:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Persia: divide and conquer 20:16 that lokks like modern politics 20:16 <Daan>Modern politics? It is politics. 20:16 especially for Balkan people 20:16 anyway 20:17 <Daan>Yes, in holland there is more a liberal attitude of coresponsibility to create wealth together. 20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably because the air in holland makes people more relaxed than in other countries (or am I just biased now?) 20:18 heh 20:18 <Daan>The air is polutted :) 20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) sorry when I insult someone now 20:18 no mountains 20:18 <Daan>That is Dutch wealth :) 20:18 perhaps you are right 20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah I see 20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I meant because of the drug shops and so 20:19 <Daan>Hardly anyone uses drugs in Holland. 20:19 <Daan>The strange thing about a liberal drug policy is that it reduces problems with drugs. 20:19 thats good or bad? 20:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, you see what kind of prejudice there is 20:19 <Daan>Yes, of course it is good. 20:20 <Daan>But, lets discuss the text. 20:20 I think the liberal model is the most succesfull 20:20 <Daan>What about the main military leaders Archidamus and Pericles. 20:20 <Daan>Yes, it is. 20:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, let's continue 20:20 <Daan>But it depends on your interest. 20:20 <Daan>It is best when you want a society where all people can live a decent live. 20:20 <Daan>life. 20:21 every human being deserves that 20:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Sparta also had this moto: liberate Greece 20:21 <Daan>I agree. 20:21 <Daan>That is what i tried to make difficult. 20:21 this was excuse I think 20:21 <Daan>Plataea and the Messenians are examples that this ideal wasn't right. 20:22 <Daan>I don't think so. I think the Spartans wanted peace. 20:22 Of course 20:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am not sure if this idea was so as it is in the times back then 20:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probabyl it was more like: the strong survives 20:22 <Daan>At least they were afraid of the Athenian power. 20:23 <Daan>But there is also an appeal to freedom. 20:23 So why they were engeged to war?\ 20:23 <Daan>Freedom means leaving people be, so you don't have to be strong. 20:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Spartans wanted peace: I guess they wanted that their foundation/structure does not get changed/interrupted too much 20:24 engaged 20:24 <Daan>Yes, but the Corinthians had to convince the Greeks that taxes and warfare where only temporary. 20:24 <Daan>Otherwise they could have lost the vote. 20:24 <Daan>They wanted freedom and most Greeks as well. 20:24 I Believe both wanted and end to this important question 20:24 who is rulingt Greece? 20:24 <Daan>Or, at least that is what i get from this text. 20:24 <Daan>Several small states. 20:25 <Daan>There wasn't a ruler. 20:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well there are the two hegemons and their influence territory 20:25 <Daan>But, the Greeks were afraid of becoming slaves of Athens. 20:25 Since Athenian Hegemony 20:25 the ruler was on sight 20:25 athenians slaughtered melians 20:25 <Daan>Also, the Spartan coalition army was too big. 20:25 and corcyrians 20:26 <Daan>The athenians were much weaker and supply was difficyult. 20:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess most subdued cities from Athens did not want to pay tributes and thought Spartans would not take taxes or that kind - just in military times 20:26 true 20:26 <Daan>It would have been better to march with a smaller better trained army with longer supply. 20:26 also true 20:27 <Daan>Archidamus had the strange tactic to wait at the Athenian border in the hope to remain at peace. 20:27 athenians were depended upon commerce 20:27 <Daan>Of course, Athens didn't want that. 20:27 and archidamus presence 20:27 weakened any commercial actions 20:27 <Daan>Well, they could have a smaller state and be free like the other Greeks. But then they could have lost independence to a new power. 20:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Archidamos just was outside the walls and the ships still could come to Piraeus the port to enable trade 20:28 <Daan>Yes, trade was still possible. 20:28 <Daan>In Holland we could also trade despite of wars. 20:28 <Daan>The only thing you need for trade is the sea and the river valleys, but Athens was not at the mouth of a river. 20:29 <Daan>Do either of you want to dicuss a theme regarding the text? 20:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens had its own port to get food and trade done 20:29 <Daan>discuss 20:29 <Daan>Yes. 20:30 yes

military leaders: Archidamos + Pericles
20:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well we could go back to the military leaders again ? 20:30 yes 20:30 <Daan>Yes. 20:30 <Daan>What would you want to say about them? 20:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>both were "friends" before 20:30 different personalities 20:30 <Daan>Yes, that is true. 20:31 <Daan>They were still friends i think. 20:31 <Daan>It is a difficulty of war. 20:31 Pericles is rather a politician 20:31 <Daan>He surely is. 20:31 Archidamus is a military ruler 20:31 <Daan>Archidamus has more principles. But it doesn't make him a strong leader. 20:32 depended from real political rulers 20:32 Efors 20:32 <Daan>Oh, okay. 20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Archidamos - well he is one of the 2 kings leading to war and also he slowed down the battle 20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so if that is not being strong ? 20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>against the ephors he still had his will 20:32 <Daan>He had a god strategy to take out the belongings of the largest group of Athenians. 20:33 <Daan>Pericles could hardly hold his population. 20:33 <Daan>Psychological warfare. 20:33 <Daan>But it only works at the start of a war. 20:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles: he could hinder his people to make a battle, despite seeing lands destroyed - so he is also powerful 20:33 <Daan>Yes, i now know again what i wanted to discuss. 20:34 <Daan>Thucydides says about war that the young Greeks were enthusiastic, but didn't know yet what war was. 20:34 <Daan>War wears down a population especially when your loved ones are killed and your belongings destroyed. 20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but the young ones are probably deluded by the strong epics/tales ? 20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the raw models 20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the values of the socities back then 20:35 <Daan>I think it has to do with boredom. 20:36 <Daan>War is exiting at start. The boring life is gone and a new daring life begins. 20:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well weren't the (olympic) games e.g. made also for this reason to have something against boredom ? 20:36 <Daan>But it is only fun when you are not hurt yet. 20:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true 20:36 <Daan>A war is much more exciting. 20:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well because you can kill people ? 20:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>normally you get punished for that 20:37 <Daan>You can defeat a whole state and everybody is joined to defeat them. It isn't like all people just minding their own personal affairs and trying to enjoy themselves in leisure times as good as possible. The whole society changes. 20:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well it is more risky definitive 20:38 <Daan>For some psychopaths, destruction and killing can be something to look forward to. 20:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and therefore more adrenaline pushing 20:38 <Daan>Yes. 20:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but in the end a battle or war is a team fighting against another 20:39 <Daan>But, i am glad there is no major war now at the moment. 20:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and 1 person from that team fights one or more from the other 20:40 <Daan>Yes, but it is not on one occasion like in the olympic Games. It is far larger and enduring. 20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is measuring your strength with other unknown strength 20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, I see the general enthusiasm, more focused on one all uniting goal 20:40 - konstantinos__ joined 20:40 <Daan>Strangely enough, people nearly always think that they are on the winning side. 20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi konstantinos__ 20:40 <konstantinos__>So you consider Pericles to be a psycopath? 20:40 <Daan>Hi Konstantinos 20:40 <Daan>No 20:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>depends - I could consider all people psychopaths when not knowing much of them :-) 20:41 <Daan>I was taling about people who actually enjoy to kill themselves. 20:41 <Daan>Pericles was a state leader. 20:41 <Daan>He wanted to take responsibility for his state. 20:41 <konstantinos__>a crude ruler 20:41 <Daan>He seems like a cool pragmatic ruler. 20:41 <konstantinos__>actually 20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well most of the things about Pericles are also idealized perhaps since he was famous back then ? 20:42 <Daan>Very different fromArchidamus, who has a heart for the people. 20:42 <konstantinos__>Of course 20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who knows if he survived the plaque who knows 20:42 <Daan>I think most politicians are like Pericles. 20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Arhidamus: heart for the people means ? 20:42 <konstantinos__>pericles was manipulating democracy I think 20:42 <Daan>He stopped at the border in the hope it would bring peace. 20:43 <Daan>But it was something stupid, because it was impossible. But still he tried it. 20:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when seeing with actual political factions: Pericles wa smore moderate coalition ? 20:44 <Daan>I think Pericles wanted to keep Athens strong. 20:44 <Daan>He fought for Athens. 20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess Archidamos did it also because he knew the Peloponnese were not yet ready for war (besides having the land as worth value against the Athenians) 20:44 <Daan>The honour of Athens. 20:44 - konstantinos___ joined 20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles: yes keeping his Polis strong 20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>konstantinos you have connection probs ? 20:44 <Daan>Yes, strange is that he became the leader of the Spartan army, while he was a moderate voice in the Spartan state. 20:45 <konstantinos___>yes 20:45 <Daan>Hi Konstantinos. You keep coming :) 20:45 <konstantinos___>lol 20:45 <konstantinos___>i cant help it 20:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 20:45 <Daan>:) 20:45 <konstantinos___>sorry 20:45 <Daan>No, you may come 3 times more, no problem with that. 20:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but tell us before you leave haha 20:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so back to the topic ? 20:46 <Daan>Archidamos was an aristocrat and Pericles a carreer politician? 20:46 <Daan>Does that make the difference? 20:46 <Daan>Archidamos was born to be king, i mean. 20:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles also came from an old high respected family 20:47 <Daan>Well, a lot of kings are truly bad, but only little carreer politicans would be like Archidamos. 20:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>some also told his shape of face looked like an old tyrant (and snobish) - konstantinos you can tell something to that ? 20:47 <Daan>Yes, but there could have been other people in his position, while archidamos was born to be king. 20:48 <konstantinos___>for pericles you mean? 20:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 20:48 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks a pic for Pericles 20:48 <konstantinos___>it is almost sure 20:48 <konstantinos___>according to Plutarchos 20:48 <konstantinos___>that he was a perfectionist 20:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the pics at Wikipedia look good 20:48 <konstantinos___>as it concerned hia 20:48 <konstantinos___>appearance 20:49 <konstantinos___>probably narcissist 20:49 <Daan>I will look as well. 20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pericles 20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess the helmet disguises his forefront 20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I read somewhere that he resembled an old tyrant 20:49 <konstantinos___>but i think he was using any means to 20:50 <konstantinos___>impress 20:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and therefore also were some suspicions (also because of his family ties) 20:50 <Daan>Konstantinos, yes i think so. 20:51 <Daan>Pericles had made a lot of buildings, wasn't it. 20:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so helping the demos ? 20:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or just state buildings ? 20:51 <Daan>I don't know. 20:51 <Daan>I don't see it in the Wikipedia article. 20:51 <konstantinos___>he gave much money 20:51 <konstantinos___>for public buildings 20:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah that I remember he had people around him who distributed money 20:52 <Daan>Okay. 20:52 <konstantinos___>athena had to make an impressions 20:52 <konstantinos___>to the alliance 20:52 <Daan>Yes, of course :) 20:52 <konstantinos___>so every time abassadors 20:52 <konstantinos___>were coming in Athens 20:53 <konstantinos___>were forced to get dressed 20:53 <konstantinos___>with different clothes 20:53 <konstantinos___>and also forced to watch Dionysia 20:53 <Daan>I am going to eat a fruit. So i will respond a bit slower. 20:53 <konstantinos___>under Acropolis etcx etc 20:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or you could say he wanted to keep flourishing the clothing and entertainment industry :-) 20:53 <konstantinos___>lol 20:54 <konstantinos___>thats pov 20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>good appetite Daan 20:54 <Daan>Thanks 20:54 <konstantinos___>from me too 20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so we are just making bad words about dead man :-) 20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they can't defend themselves 20:55 <Daan>He is dead for 2500 years now. He must be happy we are still talking about him. 20:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>good point 20:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps he is watching me while I type ? 20:55 <konstantinos___>yeap 20:56 <Daan>He will take revenge while you sleep ;) 20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, where were we now before our journey to the dead world 20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he can try 20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>characteristics of the two leaders

no multimedia about King Archidamos ?
20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we have a pic of Archidmos ? 20:56 - konstantinos quited (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:57 <Daan>Last time we also discussed about them. 20:57 <konstantinos___>not many sources 20:57 <konstantinos___>to justify any clue 20:57 <Daan>That is true. 20:57 <konstantinos___>for pericles 20:57 <konstantinos___>we have 20:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, WP or commons does not have pics about Archidamos :-( 20:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>there is one pic for the later Archidamos the 3rd 20:58 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back in a min 20:58 <Daan>Perhaps on Google? 20:59 <konstantinos___>you mean real picture? 21:00 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back 21:00 <Daan>Yes, i want a movie of him made with a mobile phone and placed on YouTube. 21:00 <Daan>:) 21:01 <Daan>#me is still here 21:01 * Daan is still here 21:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan thy wish is granted 21:01 <Daan>Youpie! 21:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>... if I would be a witch 21:01 <Daan>Than? 21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then thy wish is granted 21:02 <Daan>A fariy if better :) 21:02 <Daan>fairy 21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but it is interesting Archidamus was a leading figure but not a pic - is this due to Sparta's cultural system ? 21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but from Archidamus III there are pics 21:02 - konstantinos__ quited (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yep, fairy it should have been 21:02 <konstantinos___>well my friends 21:02 <konstantinos___>i have to leave yopu 21:02 <Daan>Oh no, only one Konstantinos left :(

literature about Peloponnesian War
21:03 <konstantinos___>http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft767nb497/ 21:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah why ? 21:03 <Daan>bye Konstantinos 21:03 <konstantinos___>this is a book 21:03 <konstantinos___>very good one 21:03 <konstantinos___>about athenian hegemony and political realism 21:04 <Daan>It sounds pretty good indeed. 21:04 <Daan>Very postmodern, i suppose. 21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I wanted to say before you leave: good you were here, since you helped us with not being two persons only and also giving more details as a Greek knowing issues more better 21:04 <konstantinos___>thanks 21:04 <Daan>Yes, i liked it as well with you. 21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>will we see you again ? and you agree to make the chat public ? 21:04 <konstantinos___>too many people not good conversation 21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we will remove non-topic issues 21:05 <Daan>That is true. 21:05 <konstantinos___>and this was a good conversation 21:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 21:05 <Daan>We had some chat sessions which were very busy. 21:05 <konstantinos___>thank you 21:05 <konstantinos___>byez 21:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye konstantinos___ 21:05 <Daan>Bye! 21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan shoudl we continue ? 21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>lets do 21:06 <Daan>Okay. 21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which topics didn't we cover yet ?

military strategy
21:08 <Daan>Perhaps military strategy. 21:08 <Daan>How would we lead an army in those days. 21:08 <Daan>Suppose you are Sparta or Athens. 21:08 <Daan>There is the problem of supply. 21:09 <Daan>Of allies. 21:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean with the ressources form that time ? 21:09 <Daan>Where will you move your army? 21:09 <Daan>Yes. 21:09 <Daan>A lot in the text of today is about where armies and fleets move to and what actions they take and problems that occur.

22:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so last question: how would we lead an army in those days ? 22:05 <Daan>Yes. 22:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>supply: either take with you (or send after the troops) or get from enemy country 22:06 <Daan>Perhaps we have too limited information to answer that question. 22:06 <Daan>The last thing is tricky. 22:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, when they destroy it 22:06 <Daan>Athens could put all supply behind the walls. 22:06 <Daan>And tan you have to leave soon. 22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, if nobody attacks Sparta outside they don't have probs with supply - though they have other probs to not stay long there 22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>helot uprising, allies wanting to farm their land, see their families 22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>winter coming 22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>demotivation to stare at walls 22:08 <Daan>Superb training of the Spartan army would easily defeat the Helots. 22:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the Spartans are from just seeing numberes outnumbered pretty bad 22:08 <Daan>The last thing could be tricky indeed, especially when a famine occurs. 22:09 <Daan>Britain defeated 40.000 Bengals in the battle of Plassey with only 1800 men. 22:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Archidamos told the war against AThens is decided by money 22:09 <Daan>And less than hundred of them were actually British. 22:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did they have a good fighting position ? 22:09 <Daan>Yes, money to buy supplies, i suppose. 22:09 <Daan>Lets see. 22:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, because Athens needs food to get into the city by the sea port 22:10 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plassey 22:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also paying the soldiers 22:10 <Daan>Food is no problem for Athens. They have a large commercial port. 22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if the port gets blocked or destroyed 22:11 <Daan>And they earn enough money, had a large treasury. 22:11 <Daan>Yes, than Athens is done with quickly. 22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because I doubt Sparta can hold against them in the naval department 22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also Aigina was a chance to capture at begin of war 22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which could have an influence on ships passing by to to Piraeus 22:11 <Daan>Aegina has the problem of being an island. 22:12 <Daan>Yes. 22:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but the chance passed when Athens then won against the attacking intruders there 22:13 <Daan>Where, in Piraeus? 22:13 <Daan>Later in the war? 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think yes, not yet in book II, 1-25 22:14 <Daan>Ah, okay. 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Brasidas and others had the plan 22:14 <Daan>Brasidas is Spartan? 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if they acted swiftly they even perhaps could have intruded into Piraeus 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and who knows what could be done there 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but chance passed 22:15 <Daan>Yes. 22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, about leading troops: 22:15 <Daan>I don't know the story. 22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens went with 100 ships to the Peloponnese 22:15 <Daan>Yes, piracy. 22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to Methone and Pheia 22:16 <Daan>Methone was Spartan territory, but they were pro-Spartan other than the Messenians, wasn't it? 22:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they just attacked and when too much opposition came they retreated 22:16 <Daan>Perhaps they didn't want to be attacked and looted. 22:16 <Daan>Yes. 22:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Methone: I would say so, otherwise they would have not hold out against them until Brasidas came 22:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>at least I don't know of anything from Thucydides text 22:17 <Daan>me neither. 22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Athens seems like guerilla tactics 22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>attack and retreat 22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>less lossess hopefully and distract the enemy from Attica 22:18 <Daan>Yes. 22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>showing them that with thwir ships they are faster and more agile 22:18 <Daan>Make them angry just like what Archidamos did in Attica. 22:18 <Daan>Also, bcause they couldn't do anything else. 22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes and perhaps even feeding the enemies of Sparta with hope 22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>helots, Argos 22:19 <Daan>Otherwise Athens would do nothing. 22:19 <Daan>Yes. 22:19 <Daan>And showing to the Athenian population that everything was going fine. 22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah doing something for the morale, propaganda 22:20 <Daan>In Macedon, Athens was much stronger. 22:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean with the side switching Perdiccas ? :-) 22:20 <Daan>The Athenian army easily conquered the capital of Macedon. 22:20 <Daan>Yes. 22:20 <Daan>But in the Peloponnese, Athens attacked only small towns. 22:20 <Daan>Probably, because they were to weak. 22:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from the Methone and Pheia both are on the west coast - perhaps they just wanted the Peloponnesian army to move the most far away 22:21 <Daan>There is a bottleneck situation. Sparta is too weak at sea and Athens on land. So, they can't defeat eachother. 22:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup 22:21 <Daan>Yes. 22:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps Corinth could do something with their ships, but the time will show that Peloponnesian navy is just too inexperienced 22:22 <Daan>So, that is why the war dragged on for so long. 22:22 <Daan>Yes. 22:22 <Daan>Ever heard of the longest siege in history? 22:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>nope, which it is ? 22:22 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Candia 22:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>21 years - not bad 22:23 <Daan>Tukrey versus Venice on Crete. It took 21 years for the Turks to conquer the city. 22:23 <Daan>Yes. 22:23 <Daan>And with artillery. 22:24 <Daan>Siege techniques were pretty advanced in those days. 22:24 <Daan>The turks literally shot there way into the town. 22:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 22:24 <Daan>21 years of shooting. 22:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>brutal force 22:24 <Daan>In the time of Sparta and Athens, they used basillicas, i suppose. 22:25 <Daan>Not so good as artillery. 22:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did they have artillery back then ? 22:25 <Daan>Cannon, i mean. 22:25 <Daan>Yes, bassilica is artillery, i suppose. 22:25 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks 22:26 <Daan>It isn't the right word. 22:27 <Daan>I meant ballista 22:27 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista 22:27 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_engine 22:27 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks 22:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I see - fast way to get into the city 22:28 <Daan>Yes. 22:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if only landing would be softer 22:28 <Daan>So, the walls of Athens were very large and thick. 22:29 <Daan>Otherwise, Archidamos could have entered quickly. 22:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am just thinking if they could have good parachutes :-) 22:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>flying humans 22:29 <Daan>A ballista can be used for that. 22:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I read somewhere someone put chickens with fire burning roped and threw them like this into the city and the animals in panic went everyhwere 22:30 <Daan>Throwing a human high up in the air and than you release your parachute :) 22:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or poisons in waterform which hits the enemy 22:31 <Daan>If there was a plague, the army with the plague would use deceased bodies and trow them into the city. 22:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>nice idea :-) but don't tell the families of the body 22:31 <Daan>That is how Black Death entered Europe in 1346. 22:31 <Daan>And in the Middle East. 22:31 <Daan>That is true. 22:32 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death 22:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hm another idea to throw fecals into the city to also spread nice bacterias 22:33 <Daan>"It was reportedly first introduced to Europe at the trading city of Caffa in the Crimea in 1347. After a protracted siege, during which the Mongol army under Janibeg was suffering the disease, they catapulted the infected corpses over the city walls to infect the inhabitants. The Genoese traders fled, bringing the plague by ship into Sicily and the south of Europe, whence it spread." 22:33 <Daan>Yes, and yikes! 22:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in kind of military ideas, Humans are just inventive 22:34 <Daan>Yes, very. 22:34 <Daan>Luckily also in non-military ideas. 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes

next meeting
22:35 <Daan>I am getting tired. 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah ok - so we stop then 22:35 <Daan>Shall we continue next week? 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>of course 22:35 <Daan>Okay. 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>next 25 aphorisms 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>time ? 22:35 <Daan>Yep. 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we should ask again konstantin how he has time 22:36 <Daan>Best on next saturday. 22:36 <Daan>Yes. 22:36 <Daan>And i have less time in the evening, because i will go out at night. 22:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so lets do it then earlier 22:36 <Daan>cya 22:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye