Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-March-15

This is the chat from our meeting on 15th March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Erkan Yilmaz, pietrodn, Ramac

14:42 * Erkan_Yilmaz searches for the topics for this meeting 14:43 1. Pestilence in Athens. Society breaks down. 14:43 2. Pericles saves his skin. Athenians are angry with him for the unpopular war. Pericles convinces them to struggle on and preserve their empire which is hated by other Greeks. 14:43 3. Thucydides gives a summary of the Peloponnesian War. He sees Pericles as a great leader. Athenian leaders after him blew it and missed out on an easy victory. 14:43 4. Local conflicts are becoming part of the major war: Thracians want to conquer a town, Ambraciots take revenge on the Amphilochians, Plataea doesn't trust the Thebans. 14:43 5. The view on the war becomes more pronounced by the speech of Pericles and the issue of Plataea. The Greeks are angry with the Athenians, because they use terror to subdue the Greeks. Pericles defends this terror by stating that it makes the Athenians rich and powerful, otherwise they might become the slaves of others. But even richness is not enough, serving and dying for the state is of the most importance according to Pericles, who has a distaste for easy temporary pleasures and individualism. 14:43 Thanks to Daan for these 14:45 wow 14:45 a lot of things 14:45 yeah, but we can discuss the ones you want 14:45 I have just finished reading the text :-) 14:45 I collect my notes now online: 14:46 http://de.wikiversity.org/wiki/Kurs:Der_Peloponnesische_Krieg/Notizen 14:46 it is in German 14:46 but you could use an online translation service perhaps ? 14:47 should we start the meeting Pietro ? 14:48 let's start 14:50 - Ramac joined 14:51 ciao Ramac 14:51 ciao ramac! 14:52 :)

Pestilence in Athens. Society breaks down - influence on arts
14:56 1. Pestilence in Athens. Society breaks down. 14:56 ok let's start that one 14:56 <Ramac>yeah 14:56 With the pestilence, someone gets rich 14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>death everywhere - that is what interest people in news 14:57 Their relatives died, so they inherited a lot of money 14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes either by relatives being heir or stealing from the dead 14:57 <Ramac>pestilence in athens! we are studying it in history of art -- lisippo, skopas... 14:57 <Ramac>:D 14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Lisipo + Skopas are ... ? 14:57 People didn't know how to cure plague 14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, that is bad :-( 14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but somehow some survived 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps in the future someone should have studied why this was ? but I guess during the plaque it wasn't done or not the technical needs to do so 14:59 <Ramac>he is a sculptor 14:59 <Ramac>* they are 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysippos 15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopas 15:00 Greeks didn't know where was the pestilence from, I think 15:00 <Ramac>:) 15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Lysippos was a Greek sculptor of the 4th century BC. 15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Skopas (Ancient Greek: Σκόπας; c. 395 BC-350 BC) was an Ancient Greek sculptor and architect, 15:00 Lysippos 15:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysippos 15:00 <Ramac>it is like the seventy-century pestilence 15:00 unilinky doesn't give the incipit :-( 15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>could be though we know where it came from - at least Thucydides tell so - Äthopien > Ägypten > Lybien > Persien > Piräus > Athen 15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so what have the sculptors to do with the pestilence ? 15:01 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: it is the same period :) 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, so that is the only connection ? or did the pestilence influence their attitude towards art somehow specially ? 15:02 <Ramac>people do no longer believe in divinities 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true 15:02 their religion was an utilitaristic religion 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Thucydides told they did not fear morale and laws because of death being possibel anytime 15:03 <Ramac>and so for example in scopas' sculputer there was naked 15:03 *utilitarian 15:03 <Ramac>* there was naked divinities 15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have a picture Ramac ? 15:03 <Ramac>mmh.. wait a minute :) 15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have an example pietrodn about this utilitarian way of thinking ? 15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. like before war they sacrificed to have the Gods on their side 15:04 <Ramac>http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Apollo_Saurocton_Louvre.jpg <-- it is a picture from prassyteles 15:04 <Ramac>the same period 15:04 <Ramac>apollo is naked 15:04 <Ramac>and he's playing like a child 15:04 if people wanted anything from their gods, they had to do sacrifices 15:05 <Ramac>yes 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, so you could say the pestilence was something which made available something like a change in mind, e.g. like in Renaissance ? 15:05 <Ramac>but sacrifies didn't work 15:05 <Ramac>well yes 15:05 The bigger the sacrifice was, the bigger the Gods operated 15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah therefore Delphi got so rich :-) 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so rich people could influence by way of Gods wills and influence normal people telling: you know we are backed up by the Gods :-) 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as e.g. the Athenians thought in II, 54 / I, 118 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>like brain washing perhaps ? 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>public propaganda ? 15:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Delphi Oracle told that one God would help the Lacaedaemonians if they needed him and that the PSartans would win the war 15:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so they have already God on their side 15:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what can normal people do against Gods (might the Athenians have thought) 15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac how long did this change of mind hold on in the arts ? since then always ? or did they switch back in art again to non-naked portraits of Gods ? 15:10 <Ramac>well 15:11 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: i haven't studied yes the next period 15:11 <Ramac>but 15:11 <Ramac>in the precedent period divinities were proud and magnificent 15:13 - elmacenderesi joined 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi elmacenderesi 15:13 hey 15:13 h're u 15:13 hi 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I just invited elmacenderesi 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>elmacenderesi we were talking about the pestilence in Athens and what effects it had on the city, on art on the people 15:15 hmm 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac was talking about the influence on the art back then -> that artists began to show Gods naked, because people didn't believe so much in Gods anymore, after having bad experience with plaque 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Apollo_Saurocton_Louvre.jpg 15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac did I get you ? 15:17 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: did i get you = ? :(

15:25 Greek people was in panic 15:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so we were at "1. Pestilence in Athens. Society breaks down." 15:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, everywhere smell of death, hot summer 15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you can't go out, since Spartans + allies outside

Athens and individuals and the collective
15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what I found interesting was this: 15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Thucydides tells that people didn't act civil anymore 15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they were barbarian 15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I thought this can not be true for all 15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean imagine: you have a family and someone dies, you are in sorrow 15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you are probably wanting to help other family members 15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if you truly love them 15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you don't abandon them 15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I don't know the social structure of Athens back then 15:29 They think: "My life is short" - so they didn't respect laws, that was not important 15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but if what Thucydides is true, probably the social structure consisted too much of individuals ? 15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean we hear that Athens was a city of thinkers 15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but we dont know much if they had also their families with them ? 15:30 after the oplitic revolution, the collectivity was very important 15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Oplitic Revolution 15:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/w:Oplitic_Revolution 15:31 mmh 15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have a link ? 15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or what was it ? 15:31 there was a change in fighting 15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah I understand 15:31 not during the peloponnesian war, much time before 15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the common people get more powers/participation ? 15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>didn't Ephialtes and Tolmides also help the demos more to get power ? 15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>liek politicians using the demos in the elections 15:32 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite 15:33 Erkan_Yilmaz: In hoplitic fighting, all the soldiers had to be together. They couldn't break the structure, e.g. by fighting alone 15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes like the Phalanx idea ? 15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one hoplite was protected by the other hoplite 15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if one left the other hoplite was defenseless on his one side 15:34 <Ramac>yes 15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is also why in battle if some hoplites retreated the whole army was in danger 15:34 <Ramac>so it is not important only one hero 15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or not whole but part of the hoplites from that part 15:34 <Ramac>but the strength is the number 15:34 yes, I mean that 15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so there was a strong idea of the collective 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but I think of the individual at the moment 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine you have lost a family member 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then you are in sorrow 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because of the loss 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably you are not thinking logically at that momnet 15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so if nobody helps you, you will do something stupid 15:36 yes 15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. self murder, do not eat 15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>this is because you had a strong relation 15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but if you have other family members - who also love you, they will help you - no matter what 15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Thucydides talks also of them 15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that people died because helping the others 15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but he focusses in my opinion also much on that civility got lost 15:37 yes, they were infected - especially the doctors 15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and therefore I was thinking perhaps the social structure back then was not that of families, but more of individuals ? 15:37 Each man focuses on his own life 15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or people who did not really value family values 15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if he does so, he will certainly if he survives have bad conscience ? 15:38 It was a terrible situation 15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well that is true, we can't imagine probably

was there anything good that came because of the pestilence ?
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, was there anything good that came because of the pestilence ? 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>1. change in thinking in art 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what else ? 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>2. a description of the pestilence by Thucydides to help future doctors/people to indicate probs faster and rescue parts of the population ? 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>something like a master plan for evacuation 15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>3. for warfare: how to take a walled city -> bring in biological weapons 15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>4. change of thinking in general in relation with Gods ? 15:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so guys, we change to next topic ?

15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we have these to go: 15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>2. Pericles saves his skin. Athenians are angry with him for the unpopular war. Pericles convinces them to struggle on and preserve their empire which is hated by other Greeks. 15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>3. Thucydides gives a summary of the Peloponnesian War. He sees Pericles as a great leader. Athenian leaders after him blew it and missed out on an easy victory. 15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>4. Local conflicts are becoming part of the major war: Thracians want to conquer a town, Ambraciots take revenge on the Amphilochians, Plataea doesn't trust the Thebans. 15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>5. The view on the war becomes more pronounced by the speech of Pericles and the issue of Plataea. The Greeks are angry with the Athenians, because they use terror to subdue the Greeks. Pericles defends this terror by stating that it makes the Athenians rich and powerful, otherwise they might become the slaves of others. But even richness is not enough, serving and dying for the state is of the most importance according to Pericles, who has a distaste for easy temporary pleasures and individualism. 15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>any wishes ? 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn Ramac elmacenderesi 15:46 I'm not prepared with those arguments... :-( 15:47 I didn't study them at school 15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>doesn't matter 15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but you read the text I think ?

Pericles saves his skin. Athenians are angry with him for the unpopular war. Pericles convinces them to struggle on and preserve their empire which is hated by other Greeks.
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>how about this ? "Pericles saves his skin. Athenians are angry with him for the unpopular war. Pericles convinces them to struggle on and preserve their empire which is hated by other Greeks." 15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Athenians are angry and then Pericles calls a meeting 15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and explains why they must still hold out 15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and he convinces them 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but still they are angry and deelect him and reelect him later again, because no suitable person to do the job :-) 15:49 lol 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and the best now: 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles dies and nobody else to fill the vacuum 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and so as Thucydides tells the city loses more of its power 15:49 Pericles was great... 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>regarding Thucydides: yes 15:50 <Ramac>i prefer #thucydides :P 15:50 <Ramac>XD 15:50 <Ramac>* i prefer thucydides :P 15:50 <Ramac>XD XD 15:51 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: sorry 15:51 <Ramac>what were you talking about? :) 15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about Pericles convincing the Athenians to hold out longer in the war 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean the Athenians send also envoys to Lacadaemonians but they refused them 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so there was practically no way out to have peace 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably the Spartans and allies thought: let's wait the disease to do the work for us

Plataea
15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>anyone interested also in Plataea ? 15:53 Erkan_Yilmaz: I'm not prepared on this, and I have to do homework. I should quit 15:54 I think we should get more people here 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, we should, can you make some ads in other channels, if you know some 15:54 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: uhm i don't remember :D 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Wikibookians should be interested perhaps ? 15:54 <Ramac>mmh... try asking #wikibooks :D 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac: in the 3rd year king Archidamos goes against Plataea instead to Attica 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the funny thing: 15:55 Erkan_Yilmaz: I put an ad on it.wikibooks's village pump 15:55 <Ramac>the battle of platea, salamina, ? 15:55 <Ramac>:( 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>King Pausanias in 479 BC promised that Plataea would be free and who tries to fight/enslave them must consider that Spartans and friends will protect Plataea 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, when The Greeks fought against Persia 15:55 <Ramac>ah yes :) 15:56 Bye! 15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and now 70 years later another Spartan king comes and attacks Plataea 15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>50 years later, sorry 15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Plataea is in a bad situation: they are surrounded and can't surrender because Athenians tell, dont leave the pact 15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so they have to fight Spartans 15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and guess who wins ? ;-) 15:58 <Ramac>athen? 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Lacaedaemonians take Plataea 15:59 <Ramac>:D 15:59 * Ramac away :D 15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but they make a calling to the Gods that they did not want to fight Plataea, but Plataeans did not give them any choice, after Sparta offered many options to them 16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so we will see next week Ramac ? 16:00 <Ramac>okay :) 16:00 <Ramac>however, try asking someone else ... :D 16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac elmacenderesi anything against publishing logs ? I will remove private things not relate dto Thucydides 16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok ? 16:00 <Ramac>yes :D 16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx, Pietro agreed before already 16:01 <Ramac>yeah