Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-March-29

This is the chat from our meeting on 29th March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, Phidias, Zaharias

15:29 Shall we discuss Thucydides? 15:29 ok, we could start it officially then now 15:30 The text of today was less interesting than other times. 15:30 oh, why was that ? 15:30 In my view. 15:30 I found it interesting, much more different places in action 15:30 Too many facts on what has already happened: plundering Atica, plundering the coast of the Peloponnesus. 15:31 Yes. 15:31 I mostly liked the Lesbian speech. 15:31 yup they gave their arguments why they want to join hands with Sparta and allies 15:31 The Lesbians said that Athens didn't put effort in fighting Persia anymore, instead tried to subdue their allies. 15:31 # Mytilene revolts against Athens 15:31 # Plataea: escape of 212 people (over the Peloponnesian wall) 15:31 # Peloponnesians + allies plunder again in Attica 15:31 # campaign of Athenian Asopios in Acarnania 15:31 # Speech in Olympia 15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so what should we then do first, the speech ? 15:32 - Phidias joined 15:32 <Daan>Hi Phidias. 15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello Phidias 15:32 <Phidias>Hi 15:32 <Daan>We just started on the text discussion. 15:32 <Daan>The Lesbian speech, does that sound interesting, or not. 15:32 <Phidias>ah, fine ... i still gotta read the passage :P 15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, perhaps you still remember the text from previous times 15:33 <Daan>What is a Lesbian? 15:33 <Daan>Guys can be Lesbian. 15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>a person coming from the island Lesbos :-) 15:33 <Phidias>an inhabitant of the isle lesbos :)

15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so guys that are the topics for today: 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Mytilene revolts against Athens 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Plataea: escape of 212 people (over the Peloponnesian wall) 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Peloponnesians + allies plunder again in Attica 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># campaign of Athenian Asopios in Acarnania 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Speech in Olympia 15:35 <Daan>The last one is the Lesbian speech. 15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Phidias I have notes in German if you quickly wanna read: http://de.wikiversity.org/wiki/Kurs:Der_Peloponnesische_Krieg/Notizen/Buch_3 15:36 <Daan>I got a phone call. 15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan - it is me - I am testing how concentrated you are :-) 15:37 * Erkan_Yilmaz feels alone 15:37 <Daan>I am here! 15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great, I hope you didn't quickly end the call ? 15:38 <Daan>Okay, the Lesbian speech. 15:38 <Daan>No. 15:38 <Daan>And ended quickly out of itself. 15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hey Zaharias is chatting me :-) 15:38 <Daan>Who is he? 15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you will see, he comes now here 15:38 - Zaharias joined 15:38 <Daan>ahaha 15:39 <Zaharias>hello 15:39 <Daan>Hi Zaharias 15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello Zaharias 15:39 <Zaharias>Did you start? 15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not really 15:39 <Zaharias>ok

Mythelenian speech in Olympia
15:39 <Daan>Yes, we were discussing the Lesbian speech. in Olympia. 15:39 <Daan>I said about it: "The Lesbians said that Athens didn't put effort in fighting Persia anymore, instead tried to subdue their allies." 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Zaharias you read the text or remember from back in school ? 15:40 <Daan>But the Athenians say in Book I that the allies were not puting an effort behind the war versus Persia. 15:40 <Zaharias>Lesbians? 15:40 <Zaharias>I remamber a few things 15:40 <Daan>From the island of Lesbos. 15:40 <Zaharias>aaaaaaaa

15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so for the today contents are: 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Mytilene revolts against Athens 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Plataea: escape of 212 people (over the Peloponnesian wall) 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Peloponnesians + allies plunder again in Attica 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># campaign of Athenian Asopios in Acarnania 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Speech in Olympia

15:41 <Daan>So, the athenians had to subdue their allies. 15:41 <Daan>Now, the Lsebians rebelled (Mytilene). 15:41 <Daan>And joined Sparta. 15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Athenians HAD to 15:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that sounds like a problem on side of the allies of Athens ? 15:42 <Daan>Maps: 15:42 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Alliances_in_the_Pelopennesian_War%2C_431_B.C._1.JPG 15:42 <Zaharias>Well Athens was something like a "dictator" with allies 15:43 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GR_Lesvos.PNG 15:43 <Daan>Yes. 15:44 <Daan>Erkan, do you have something that interested you about the text? 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about the speech ? 15:45 <Daan>The whole text, or the speech. 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the speech itself sees only the Mythelenian side 15:45 <Zaharias>In my opinion I think that Sparta didn't do that with its allies because one of its allies was Korinthos 15:45 <Zaharias>do you have a link to the speech? 15:46 <Daan>So, what was special about Sparta and Corinth? 15:46 * Erkan_Yilmaz searches speech link 15:46 <Zaharias>Corinth was 3rd in "power" 15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_3 aphorism 9 15:46 <Zaharias>thx 15:46 <Daan>Aphorisms 8 to 14. 15:46 <Zaharias>ok 15:48 <Zaharias>I bookmarked the link because I can't read it now(too big)

What is special about Corinth + Sparta ?
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>special about Sparta + Corinth: 15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>no prob Zaharias 15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corinth has a good location (from map point) in the Peloponnesus 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is trading 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>its influence extends with her ships 15:49 <Zaharias>This is a factor 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta:

15:49 <Zaharias>Well I think corinth was more enemy of Athens than ally of Sparta 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>excellent hoplite army 15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>stable constitution 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>(meaning constitution stable, but politics might change) 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>(due to ephors and kings) 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Zaharias: I agree 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens limited the Corinthians interests since both have ships and must hinder each other 15:50 <Daan>I don't know much about it, other then that the text said that Sparta and Corinth were equal allies. 15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Sparta was the weaker in one sense 15:51 <Zaharias>Yeah there was great competition between Corinth and Athens 15:51 <Daan>But, Lesbos says that Lesbos used to be equal to Athens. 15:51 <Daan>But, Athens subdued many allies, thereby Lesbos become weaker. 15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, because they provided ships like Chios 15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and also Corcyra 15:51 <Daan>Both Corinth and Sparta hadn't conquered much territory. 15:52 <Zaharias>territory- land? 15:52 <Daan>Just like the Delian-Athinian League, the Peloponnesian League was mainly defensive. 15:52 <Zaharias>If yes 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Sparta didn't want because the more they conquer the more they have to take care of - therefore they let the allies (oligarchic) goverments mostly autonomous 15:53 <Daan>Yes. 15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but Corinth I think was eager to conquer more 15:53 <Daan>Yes.

location of Corinth is less good than that of Athens ?
15:53 <Daan>The location of Corinth is less good than that of Athens, i think. 15:53 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks at the map 15:53 <Daan>Athens is located next to a wide open sea. 15:54 <Zaharias>I don't think so 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I also disagree 15:54 <Daan>While Corinth has to pass a large Sea Channell to enter the open sea. 15:54 <Zaharias>Corinth could go much more easily to Italy 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corinth practically controls Istmus AND 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ships can be transported form the Saronic Gulf to the gulf of Corinth by land 15:54 <Daan>That is right. 15:55 <Zaharias>yes 15:55 <Daan>So, they are potentially equal. 15:55 <Daan>I had a lot of attention on city growth at the university. 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if Corinth would have done better they had the chance to conquer Piraeus once 15:55 <Daan>A whole course was dedicated to it. 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but they missed it :-) 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, what was told in that course Daan ? 15:56 <Daan>Cities on a river are in a better position than cities like Athens and Corinth, which have only the sea. 15:56 <Daan>Cities in a river delta, i mean. 15:56 <Zaharias>ah yes 15:56 <Zaharias>i agree 15:56 <Zaharias>But 15:56 <Daan>Shanghai, Rotterdam are two of the three main ports in the world. 15:56 <Zaharias>there are no big river delta in greece 15:56 <Zaharias>:D 15:57 <Zaharias>Yup but Piraeus and Thessaloniki are very big too

Greek ships - today and past
15:57 <Zaharias>And the greek ships 15:57 <Zaharias>are the most 15:57 <Zaharias>in the world 15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>today ? 15:57 <Zaharias>yup 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have a number ? 15:58 <Zaharias>no 15:58 <Daan>Well, they had a lot of colonies in the Mediteranean. 15:58 <Daan>I don't know. 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>np 15:58 <Daan>Don't the Indonesians have more ships, for instance? 15:58 <Zaharias>w8 i will find one 15:58 <Zaharias>nop 15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw good chance to awaken Phidias again :-) 15:59 <Zaharias>marocco competes greece 15:59 <Daan>Whatabout the American transport ships for oil and consumer goods. 15:59 <Zaharias>w8 for numbers 15:59 <Daan>Oh, ships sailing with the Greek flag, you mean? 15:59 <Zaharias>yup 15:59 <Daan>So, the owner doesn't need to be Greek. 15:59 <Zaharias>This is not a problem for 15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wasn't there also once a famous Greek who had his money from ships ? 15:59 <Daan>Nice business. 15:59 <Zaharias>Onasis 16:00 <Zaharias>Well guys 16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, that one 16:00 <Zaharias>ships with greek flag 16:00 <Zaharias>are the most 16:00 <Zaharias>but ships that have greek owners 16:00 <Zaharias>are much more 16:00 <Zaharias>Latsis 16:00 <Zaharias>Restis 16:00 <Daan>yes, worldwide? 16:00 <Zaharias>yup 16:01 <Zaharias>WE have many rich ship owners here 16:01 <Daan>So, the Greeks are the modern Dutch. 16:01 <Zaharias>I have read it in an encyclopedia 16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>link ? 16:01 <Zaharias>In my home 16:01 <Zaharias>:D 16:01 <Zaharias>before 4-5 months 16:01 <Daan>Dutch ships dominated Northern Europe from the 15th to the 17th century. 16:01 <Zaharias>I know it 16:02 <Daan>And in the 17th century, Dutch ships dominated the world. 16:02 <Zaharias>And then Britain dominated thew world 16:02 <Daan>Yes. 16:02 <Daan>The Dutch even invested huge amount of money to conquer the world. 16:02 <Daan>The invaded Brazil. 16:03 <Zaharias>I will search for a link 16:03 <Daan>The plan was to conquer Brazil, than Argentina, and move tho the silver mines in Bolivia. 16:03 <Zaharias>the trading ships are the most 16:04 <Zaharias>not the war ships 16:04 <Zaharias>battle ships 16:04 <Daan>The Americans probably have the most warships. 16:05 <Zaharias>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece#Maritime_industry 16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I think back in Thucydides times they had 300 triremes 16:05 <Daan>The numbers mentioned by Thucydides are very low. 16:05 <Zaharias>For today 16:05 <Daan>A few thousand warriors and a few hundred ships. 16:06 <Zaharias>Well you should mention that great alexander 16:06 <Zaharias>had only 20.000 men 16:07 <Zaharias>And he conquered the half Asia!!! 16:07 <Zaharias>not the half 16:07 <Zaharias>about 1/4 16:07 <Zaharias>i think 16:07 <Zaharias>Until India 16:07 <Daan>Yes. 16:08 <Daan>I read in a book that Greek Buddhists in Afghanistan were the first to make Buddha statues. 16:08 <Daan>So, Buddha had a Greek nose.

troops of Athens, Sparta
16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Athens could bring about 25000 men, Sparta - without Argos and Arcadia - about 35000 16:08 <Zaharias>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_the_Empire_of_Alexander_the_Great_%281893%29.jpg 16:08 <Daan>has, on the statues. 16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagining Sitalces with his 150000 men 16:08 <Daan>You have looked it up, Erkan? 16:08 <Zaharias>Sitalces? 16:09 <Daan>Yes, that was a large army. 16:09 <Zaharias>Who is he? 16:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we had it in last meeting 16:09 <Daan>It was in book II. 16:09 <Daan>Sitalces is the king of the Odryssian Thracians. 16:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitalces 16:09 <Zaharias>ah Thrasians 16:09 <Daan>He ruled what is now Bulgaria, Greek Thrace, Turkish Thrace and southern Rumania. 16:10 <Daan>So, his realm was as big as the whole of all Greek territories combined. 16:10 <Zaharias>Who is Phidias? 16:11 <Daan>A guy. 16:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Phidias is quite quiet today :-( 16:11 <Zaharias>I think so too

Mythilene + the Peloponnesians
16:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so guys lets continue with Thucydides ? 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so topics were 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Speech in Olympia 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Mytilene revolts against Athens 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Plataea: escape of 212 people (over the Peloponnesian wall) 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Peloponnesians + allies plunder again in Attica 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># campaign of Athenian Asopios in Acarnania 16:22 <Daan>Mytilene 16:22 <Zaharia1>Well I think you should make the start 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 16:22 <Zaharia1>:D 16:23 <Daan>There was a lot of confusion on messages. 16:23 <Daan>Between Lesbos and the Peloponnesus. 16:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Mythilene wants to join Peloponnesians (after being rejected in the past) and Peloponnesians accept it this time 16:23 <Daan>Those places are far away, and it was noticeable in the text. 16:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what kind of confusion ? 16:24 <Daan>The Spartans attacked Athens, to help Lesbos. 16:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Spartans were preparing at Isthmus for the 2nd attack in Attica 16:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but the allies didn't come because harvest time 16:25 <Zaharia1>Well I think Spartans let Lesbos to join the league so as to weaken the Athens league 16:25 <Daan>But, they imagined that there were no athenians in Lesbos, because athens had a lot of ships in action near Attica. 16:25 <Daan>Yes. 16:25 <Daan>So, the Spartans retreated home. 16:25 <Zaharia1>yup 16:25 <Daan>In truth, Lesbos was being attacked by Athens. 16:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Zaharia1 yes, probably they learned from their failure with Corcyra (because of e.g. ships) 16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah that info with less ships came from Mythilene 16:26 <Daan>Later a Spartan slip into a Lesbian city. 16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>again a place where the people asking for Spartas help provide false info (intentionally?) 16:26 <Daan>To tell the Lesbians that support was coming. 16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes and Mythilene got courage again 16:26 <Daan>did they? 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it tells 16:27 <Daan>I read it too quickly, perhaps. 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"The Mitylenians upon this took courage, and laid aside the idea of treating with the Athenians;" 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>25 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_3 16:27 <Daan>Yes. 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so this time the Peloponnesians really wanna do some action to help a defecting ally of Athens 16:28 <Daan>Yes. 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>arguments told by Mythilene are e.g. 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens weakened by plaque 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>too much money expenditure 16:28 <Daan>But, Lesbos would be a strong ally. 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta will get ships of Mythilene 16:28 <Daan>Potidaea was small. 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>a signal to other not content members of Delian league to defect 16:28 <Daan>Also. 16:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also no word more that Sparta does not help people who seek help (because they have the slogan to liberate Greece from Athens "tyranny") 16:30 <Daan>Yes. 16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but unfortunately first efforts to help Mythilene don't work out :-( 16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and Mythilene gets blockaded by sea and land

Sparta + Athens : oligarchy and democracy
16:30 <Zaharia1>well 16:30 <Zaharia1>there is sth that i think i should mention 16:31 <Zaharia1>sparta had tyranny 16:31 <Daan>Yes, they subdued the Messenians. 16:31 <Zaharia1>and athens with PEricles had democracy 16:31 <Zaharia1>There is the difference 16:31 <Zaharia1>BUT 16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, Sparta had oligarchy 16:31 <Daan>But, most inhabitants of Athens were foreigners. 16:32 <Daan>Athens was only for a small % of the population a democracy, but many of them were poor. 16:32 <Zaharia1>athens was very aggressive with its allies in the league 16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean that only citizens of AThens had rights, e.g. to vote, get official positions, ... 16:32 <Zaharia1>Believe me there were not many inhabitants in athens 16:33 <Daan>Yes. 16:33 <Zaharia1>In sparta there were NO inhabitants 16:33 <Zaharia1>For lesbos 16:33 <Daan>citizens. 16:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what means inhabitants ? 16:34 <Zaharia1>foreign 16:34 <Zaharia1>people 16:34 <Zaharia1>I don't know how to say it 16:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so in Sparta there was no "outsiders" ? I read somewhere that Sparta did regularly to kick out foreigners 16:34 <Zaharia1>i will tell you later 16:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and Pericles told that they dont do this 16:35 <Zaharia1>about this 16:35 <Daan>Oh, that was what it was about. 16:35 <Zaharia1>Have you seen 300? 16:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 16:35 <Daan>Pericles said something about freedom and the market in Sparta. 16:35 <Daan>What is 300? 16:35 <Zaharia1>i think that it does mention about 16:35 <Zaharia1>a movie 16:36 <Zaharia1>the myth with the foreign 16:36 <Zaharia1>Anyway 16:36 <Zaharia1>I think Sparta wanted some allies that had many ships 16:37 <Zaharia1>because it could beat athens in land 16:37 <Zaharia1>but in the sea 16:37 <Zaharia1>Was far away 16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"when the Lacedaemonians suspend their alien acts in favour of us and our allies, there being nothing in the treaty to prevent either one or the other: that we will leave the cities independent, if independent we found them when we made the treaty, and when the Lacedaemonians grant to their cities an independence not involving subservience to Lacedaemonian interests," 16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>144 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_1 16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean this Zaharia1 ? 16:38 <Zaharia1>nop 16:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, then we will talk later 16:38 <Zaharia1>I mean that Sparta didn't allow foreign people to stay longer than a day in sparta 16:38 <Zaharia1>Myth or reality? 16:38 <Zaharia1>Most say it was reality 16:39 <Zaharia1>*most people 16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is the passage I have and the notes to the text tells what you say 16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Sparta did this so people don't spy on their city 16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. getting to know info on military forces and politics and such 16:40 <Zaharia1>yes 16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps you can find some more info for next time ? 16:40 <Zaharia1>if i attend 16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and no other city made this - only Sparta ? 16:40 <Zaharia1>yes 16:40 <Zaharia1>yup 16:40 <Zaharia1>only sparta 16:40 <Daan>sorry for not being very active. 16:40 <Zaharia1>np 16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting, that also eliminates influence from outside to come into Sparta 16:41 <Zaharia1>aha 16:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so that could be one reason why Lykurg's constitution stayed over time ? 16:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when new people are in town they tell what they do and what they heard, so not so much news is spread and with news happens discussion and change in society's morale perhaps 16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Sparta wanted to protect its society like this ? 16:42 <Zaharia1>yes 16:42 <Zaharia1>I think so 16:42 <Daan>Funny. 16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>on the contrast e.g. Athens who lived on ideas, discussion, philsophy

city of Sparta in modern times
16:42 <Daan>Sparta is in a sense a small village. 16:42 <Daan>All cities back then would be villages now. 16:42 <Zaharia1>a small society 16:43 <Daan>Many modern villages are closed. 16:43 <Zaharia1>the main difference 16:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sparta_ruins.PNG 16:43 <Zaharia1>is that if you had noticed it 16:43 <Zaharia1>Spartans' interests was only war 16:43 <Daan>Beautiful place. 16:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Sparta.jpg 16:44 <Daan>Yes. 16:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Sparti_in-river-Eurotas-valley_flanked-by-Taygetos-mountains.jpg 16:44 <Zaharia1>the city is beautiful 16:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so there is a new Sparta build next to ancient Sparta ? 16:44 <Zaharia1>yup 16:44 <Zaharia1>But it is a small town 16:44 <Daan>Probably has never been abandoned? 16:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>are there plans to rebuild for history purposes old Sparta ? 16:45 <Zaharia1>no 16:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-( 16:45 <Zaharia1>I think it was abandoded for some decades 16:45 <Daan>I will go now. 16:45 <Zaharia1>but i am not sure 16:45 <Zaharia1>ok 16:46 <Zaharia1>goodbye 16:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye Daan 16:46 <Daan>goodbye.

17:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok Zaharia1 I will publish the chat log without private info on en.WV 17:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>is that ok for you ? 17:20 <Zaharias>ok

TODO

 * Sparta and letting strangers stay only 1 day in Sparta