User talk:JoliePA

Welcome
Hello Jolie, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 18:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Worldpolitics
Hi Jolie,

I saw that you joined the reading group dedicated to worldpolitics. It has grown into a kind of personal hobby of mine.

I am an academic, so i should have put down enough sources and do something about my grammar. I am Dutch, english is my second language, so some grammar mistakes will be hard to see for me.

You are the first one to join. What do topics do you like within worldpolitics?--Daanschr 08:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * hello. As a lifelong student, I want to make a continual effort at being informed and knowledgeable.  I have become intrigued by the wikimedia model.  How does contributing here differ in educational value from readings at the library or participation on an internet forum?


 * The reading is a little tedious and difficult with no social interaction but online forums can be mindless ranting with little to no educational value.
 * Right now, I would like an opportunity to learn more about the social sciences. I think there are many interesting possibilities and I welcome your input. If I could ask just one favor of you, this would be SO much easier if the material were on-line and freely accessable.


 * An acedemic from holland and a chemist from the USA might have great difficulty getting similar reading material.--Jolie 13:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you on libraries and internet forums.

Acquiring books from libraries might not be a problem. Famous books are available all over the world. I don't know much on the availability of literature on the topics that i mentioned in the reading group of worldpolitics. A summary of the sources i used are:
 * Himmelfarb. I have read one book of here and a couple of articles on the internet. A whole ranch of side issues can be pursued.
 * Darwin's Nightmare. I saw the documentary on the television and it might be available on the internet. Most of the discussion points that i added are from a Dutch television program, which is easily available on the internet, but all in Dutch. So, that might be a problem.
 * Itulip. Well, that is the most easy one. All articles are online and in English. From an academic view, it would be bad to use this one source on economics, though i think it is a good one. They have predicited a few economic disasters, including the internet bubble and the present financial collapse.
 * Science fiction. This theme was added after watching a documentary of the BBC, but i don't know the title of it.

The good thing of social sciences is that those intellectuals who have little knowledge of it, can still easily understand what it is all about. It depends on the topics we will try to learn about, what sources are needed.--Daanschr 14:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

American History
I am glad to see someone likes my random scribblings :). Welcome aboard. It might be a while for the lectures to come up, as I ran into a snag. Geo.plrd 20:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

US History
I am not possessive about my lectures. If you can make them better, go ahead. Where did the 1830 stuff come from though? CliffNotes? Geo.plrd 23:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting to hear that. I think I developed a piece of the textbook. Feel free to improve anything. Geo.plrd 15:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I saw it. did you mean the text book is outlined? or did you do a bit of it while waiting for me?? Didn't do too much today at lunch! (sorry). felt sluggish and lingered in some unmotivated surfing.  I will try to smuggle some time in this afternoon to get a big chunk of that textbook written.  If we happen to duplicate efforts I'm sure differences can be ironed out easily.  I have the topics figured out, now.--Jolie 16:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * goaded by a little bit of guilt I hastily adapted what I had for the first part of the textbook. I figured out how to attach a file, yipee!! yeah, I know; simple thrills for simple minds.--Jolie 17:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I mean that I started writing the first section. Your work is excellent! Sorry to have to make changes but we are going to start working on the textbook on Wikibooks. Its at b:United We Stand. All I needed to do was make some minor changes, and elaborate on my pieces a bit more. Geo.plrd 05:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As for the minor changes, they are great! this is exactly how we should work, my rough draft is definitely rough and raw.  I am learning much of this stuff along the way (which is the point of the course), and lack perhaps some of the big picture.  Your broader experience in invaluable in this project.  Normally, polished professionals develop textbooks.  To produce a decent textbook with one student and one teacher is an great accomplishment.--Jolie 13:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there a reason you've begun a new textbook instead of fixing the old one? Feel free to improve it (a lot!) - we've had much criticism for that one in particular, so I'd be happy to help if I can (though I know next to nothing about US history). And I've replied to Jolie on Wikibooks as well. – Mike.lifeguard &#124; @en.wb 22:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * (Smile) I am JoliePA on wikibooks (since I didn't know how to log into WB with my present 'identity'). The issue of starting another another wikibook has been hotly debated for a while.
 * I don't know quite what to say about it right now. I am studying the course with Geo.plrd as an instructor. We both agree that the present book has problems, both in content and in organization with its stated preface and that a big project to cover US History in enough depth to write a book, is very educational.
 * I hope I've been clear about my point of view. I value this educational course and am learning alot. I'm not so certain my writings could be the 'authoritative Wikibook' without some help from others.  The project (we are doing) is very big, but the controversy is kind of time consuming.
 * If you would check out the controversy on justification and tell me what you think.--Jolie 12:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

History
Since you're involved in History learning resources, would you mind posting your thoughts on policy proposals and discussions over at School talk:History? The more voices we get, the better, I think. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 21:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Time is an issue. You seem to be everywhere and in every conversation. It is inspiring! unfortunately, I feel like I am bumping into a general limit on how much I can get involved in. But rest assured, I do spend a time reading over there (which is much faster than writing). I will post on policy as much as I much as I can think of contributions which are useful and helpful. It is almost a shame we don't have a 'I agree' mark for users to quickly signal agreement to posts which they think are quite insightful and to show consensus.--Jolie 14:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There is always (✅).  You can copy it to your clipboard and paste it where you feel appropriate.  Even that much would be helpful in figuring out consensus.  There's also, , and .  And, of course, .  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 07:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Perfect! (✅) that this will help. --Jolie 12:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Great job on the book contributions! Geo.plrd 16:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Conflict etc
Hi Jolie, I've been meaning to stop by for a while. I'm also very interested in Learning to learn a wiki way - but I've been too involved with recent conflicts etc to be able to get stuck in with other things. I appreciate your comments on the Colloquium - I'd simply say, if you're not affected by recent conflicts, don't worry about it, and busy yourself with what actually interests you. :-) See you around... Cormaggio talk 16:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Monk's mound image
hi, I noticed that the image you uploaded is already at http://commons.wikimedia.org at Image:Monks Mound in July.JPG. I just wanted to let you know that there is an easy way to include images there on wikiversity, and you can even resize them. See my edit for an example of how to do this. Feel free to contact me if you'd like any help on how to use images on wikiveristy. There are a number of shortcuts that can save you time. --mikeu talk 17:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I intend to borrow heavily from the wikipedia project pages. --Jolie 18:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: US History
Is it more ethical to redo a wikibook or alter the writing of the current one ,with conflicting material? Couldn't the latter be considered a form of vandalism. And yet, myself I would probably WELCOME a contribution to my material rather than the rewriting the topic altogether. The fact that the book seems abandoned, needs considered, too. if the author is not around to work with; how do you exactly build of his work???

That's what the day is about SO far. I didn't want to get stuck in a philosophical dilemma about ethics (So much of WV IS now days)- I wanted to learn. but to edit, means to make choices that some might see as unethical. I think this issue is our a test of what we consider to be ethical editing.

Even once this project has done, It will remain an ethical dilemma. even for WB. Do they boot out the current book from their 'featured textbook', will they think we wer right to redo the textbook, rather than add to the current book? If our goal is the Authoritative textbook of US history. We need to be aware that this might seem controversial to people in WB.--Jolie 15:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC) Well, I think that is more prudent to write a new wikibook, because the other one has evolved. We will be handing them a fully written, standards based textbook. If they complain, it will cost them a free textbook that any teacher could use. If they really don't want it, it can be hosted elsewhere. Geo.plrd 17:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Whew! thats done, the Mayan, Incans and Azteks seemed hard to do. On to the vikings.--Jolie 16:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

please provide a little bit of organization in the book. I believe the next topic is "3. American Indian cultures of North America at the time of European contact " this should be rather straitforward. We've already covered the major missippian culture that dominated the south and midwest. The Northeastern indian cultures were less unified.--Jolie 16:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Will do Geo.plrd 17:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Then we will use the US History textbook. I think Mike Lifeguard doesn't understand that this is a diefferent focus. Lets hold off for about 24-48 hours and see what happens. Geo.plrd 23:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I am starting to agree. Gutting the current book may be the best option. A euro centric US History book is worthless. 137.164.142.2 16:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * After rereading the US History textbook, I think we should take over AP US History and borrow good parts of US History. I am really not sure how to fix the messes of US History. Geo.plrd 17:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can fix it, go ahead. I will bring the popcorn and refreshments ;) Geo.plrd 18:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * already done some of it. There are seven pages that are unlinked; some of its content will be consolidated into the new organization.  Other content like the whole 'european overview' is just irrelevant for an US history textbook.  I will bring it up to mike next week.  I'm famously fond of Diet pepsi, in case you are bringing drinks ;)--Jolie 19:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. Keep up the good work! The Jade Knight (d'viser) 20:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Good job! I am semi active myself. Geoff Plourde 17:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

observational astronomy
It was sort of ironic to see the Mayan reference just as I was creating a project on near-earth asteroids... Do you do any imaging? or just visual observation? So far I have created Observational astronomy and some subpages. You can see some of my longer term goals at Observational astronomy/Planning. Mostly these are hands-on, but not really as participatory I'd like. So far, I've focused on projects that didn't require a telescope. There seemed to be very little interest in astronomy here at the time, so I concentrated on static lesson pages. I'd be very interested in starting a new course. There are a number of ideas for wiki education that I'd like to try out. Are there any topics that you are interested in learning? --mikeu talk 15:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comets sounds like a fun project! I'll do some edits over the weekend.  --mikeu talk 17:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I really need to rework some of those pages. It has been a long time since I did anything major there.  The supernova subpage was more to document something that I was working on, but never finished.  I had intended to create a lesson on photometry of supernovae, but it was too difficult to explain and also to get good results.  I realized that I needed to back up and teach the introductory concepts first.  The supernova section at Observational astronomy was just intended to be a simple compare the before and after images.  This feedback from you is very helpful.  Please continue to make suggestions.  Yes, I do plan on taking more images.  As soon as I shake this cold that I have and the sky clears.  --mikeu talk 01:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The new pages are looking good! Could you fill out the description at Image:102308 globM31.jpg? Also, choose a license and describe what the source of the image is (created by you, public domain from somewhere else) Thanks  --mikeu talk 23:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * done! --Jolie 14:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Speaking of images, I noticed b:Image:Clovis man.gif.  Let me know if you need any help or advice on image uploading and creating the description page.  Here on wv we tend to take some time to review image uploads to make sure they have a proper license.  But, on some sites like wb this process happens sooner, and you might find that an image without a clearly specified license or source might get deleted quickly.  Also, do you know about unified login?  I noticed that you have different usernames on wv and wv.  I can also help with that.  --mikeu talk 17:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks like the reason that you do not have a unified login for User:Jolie is because of another account at . The b:User:JoliePA account already is unified.  First, decide which name you prefer to use.  Then let me know and I'll give you the instructions.   What we would likely do is usurp the bg-wp account, and then rename the JoliePA on wb.  --mikeu talk 13:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I would like to be 'Jolie' I'm much more active as Jolie in wv than in anything else. Thank you, --Jolie 13:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, I'll write up some instructions later to get you started on the unified login. FYI, see Supernova 2008fv in NGC 3147 that I took last night.  --mikeu talk 19:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I can give some advice on unified login, but Mike.lifeguard can help with the rename on wb. Also, a couple of new images at Image:M15c2.jpg and Image:M15c300-1.jpg.  --mikeu talk 04:41, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Backyard Astronomy
There is another page called Backyard Astronomy that was started long ago, but not developed very much. Feel free to jump in and make improvements if you have any ideas. --mikeu talk 17:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I just imported Skygazing which looked like it was about to get deleted. It was copied to here: Skygazing.  --mikeu talk 19:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The changes to Backyard Astronomy look good! I agree that it is best to learn the sky naked eye, and then maybe purchase inexpensive binoculars that can also be used for bird watching or sports events, before considering an investment in a decent telescope.  As far as multiple pages, that is not so much of a problem at wv.  It is fine to have multiple learning pages about "getting started" and "observing with a telescope" etc. from different perspectives.


 * About not having much time in "the last few days" I would say that we should look at this as a long term project that will slowly develop over months or longer. I have also been quite busy, and not had time to edit much in the past week.  The weather is also looking very poor for observing, so I have not done much astronomy.  Maybe with the rain expected this week I'll get some editing in ;)


 * We should proably continue these discussions about improving astronomy pages at a central location like Topic talk:Astronomy where it is easier to follow replies, and more people might see it and join in. --mikeu talk 20:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Textbook Citations
Generally textbooks don't have citations. I can't think of a reason to break the mold in this instance. If you really want to, you can leave a justification on the talk page, however no one appears to be interested in complaining. From what I can see, you have been doing an excellent job thus far. Keep up the good work. Geo.plrd 19:37, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not a 205 IP Address. Mine are 137 and 75. Geoff Plourde 17:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Chat
Do you use IRC? I am frequently in the #wikiversity-en channel, and it might be helpful to chat in real time about some of the astronomy pages and organization issues. --mikeu talk 14:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Awesome It worked... for my reference the link is here
 * going to try to talk again at about 2:30-3pm. I think we need to collaborate.  we agree there's a problem, we agree content needs defined.  I want to try to build something together that will 'catch' people interested in astronomy and engage them.  the 'topic space' might be fine.  lets muse.--Jolie 18:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I should be around until then. I'll be visiting family later in the afternoon, and then back online this evening.  --mikeu talk 19:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

IRC and courses
I am glad to hear that you are on IRC. I will be on tonight between 5 and 8 Pacific Time. (Eastern-3) I designed intro to us history as a course because it is meant to provide a foundation in us history. I will probably design more courses/projects based around writing textbooks. I think that we do need to reconsider any inactive courses, like I did with North American History. Geoff Plourde 19:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Images
I uploaded a new image at Image:NGC188.jpg. The weather has been so bad I've taken to using the telescope for other things.--mikeu talk 02:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Los hombres espanoles
I understand where you come from. The reason why the Spanish are covered is that they got the ball moving. Without the Spanish, the English wouldn't have decided to start exploring. Also, the Spanish brought new diseases to the natives of America. Sorry I haven't been more active, but I have a lot of projects that are picking a hell of a time to come due. Keep up the good work. Geoff Plourde 06:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Questions
"you have accused Mike of calling someone a whiner, a troll, and worse" <-- No, I did not. At the top of my user talk page there is an introductory part called "Civility hall of fame". If people follow the links from that page section they can figure out who said those things. Mike said that he does not like "drama" at a wiki. I asked him what he means by "drama". I have asked: Does it count as "drama" that a select team of Wikiversity custodians is free to call other Wikiversity participants "whiner" or "troll" or advise them to "go fuck yourself and go away"? I never indicated or implied that Mike said those things, I just wanted to know what he thinks about comments like that coming from other custodians. "attach specific and referenced allegations" <-- I would be happy to provide links to all of the on-wiki events that I describe. Of course, some of my questions involve what has happened in the #wikiversity-en chat channel and other off-wiki locations. My approach has been to ask Mike some simple questions about events that he is familiar with and do so without providing links. I can see how that would be confusing for people who are not familiar with everything that Mike is familiar with. I've been thinking that it would be constructive to modify History of Wikiversity so as to include an account of important events from the past year or two. That might be the best place to provide links for many past events that you are not familiar with. "I was hoping that as a community we could discuss and understand what has you and some other participants so upset" <-- I am in complete agreement that this would be a good thing. As a small matter of clarification, I am more puzzled and disappointed than upset. Wikiversity went along happily for two years as a community where open discussion was used to resolve differences of opinion. That changed this past summer. I wonder if it will be possible to get this community back on track as a center for exploring how to use wiki technology to support the joy of learning. "if you are specifically and clearly recording incivil acts somewhere" <-- the closest I have come to that is the "Civility hall of fame". Frankly, I am physically sickened to be called "whiner" and "troll" and worse while I try to participate in scholarly projects at Wikiversity. It is generally accepted in the wiki world that users can remove incivility from their user talk pages, so I have done that. Some people think that incivility is grounds for banning wiki participants. I have a fairly high threshold for blocking and banning non-vandals (I'd rather talk out problems than just ban people), so I do not have any real interest in trying to keep a catalog of incivil comments. In general, I first try to ignore incivility, but the problem with doing so is that in some cases it seems to just invite further incivility. "such different experiences with Mike" <-- I think of Mike as a dedicated wiki editor who can be a very good collaborator at Wikiversity. Wikiversity has some long-standing problems such as many uploaded files without good source and licensing information. Mike has shown an interest in working to deal with that problem; it is the kind of boring task that few other people want to devote time to. In my questions for Mike I am just exercising what I feel is my duty to examine his editing history and his likely future behavior as a custodian. "sometimes deletions are needed to create order" <-- I agree. I myself have personally deleted hundreds of wiki pages. "I have had nothing but inspirational experience here in wv" <-- that pleases me very much! It is certainly the kind of experience that I was hoping for during all the long years I have spent working to first establish Wikiversity and then help it grow. We are in a bit of a rough period right now...I have previously characterized it as a "Chinese fire drill". Hopefully we will all move past this and be able to get back to having fun with our learning projects. --JWSchmidt 19:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

mascotguy stuff
Hiya Jolie. The person who put that on your page probably was "MascotGuy" (see w:Wikipedia:Long term abuse/MascotGuy for the "5000" reference). He used the same template on JWSchmidt's page too, so don't feel too singled out :-). No worries, mate!

Still cloudy and rainy here by the way... very nice view of the nearly-full moon through the clouds this morning though. --SB_Johnny talk 16:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

oh, one other thing
Jason, if you want I can just rename your other account to this username (that way you'd still have your watchlist/preferences/etc., and the contribs would all show on the same account). --SB_Johnny talk 16:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, oops :-). If you've already unified, I don't think I can change it over for you. No biggie though, I hope. --SB_Johnny talk 18:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * A friendly reminder: If you haven't found it out yet, you can edit your watchlist like this. Have a good day. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 18:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Hillgentleman... I'm having one of those "at the keyboard only in short doses days" :-). But yup, just copy the raw watchlist from Jolie, and paste it to the raw watchlist for this account.
 * As for the redirects, I did one for your user page here, you can do the same for your talk by removing all content and then hitting the #R button above the edit window. I can of course lock and protect both pages if you like. --SB_Johnny talk 20:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: Dept of Haitian history
hey Jolie, the department is quite new and since you have been reading up on some materials that's relevent to the subject, maybe you'd like to contribute to the department, it would be awesome. Just drop by on the department talk page sometimes. And thanks for looking it over, but I should have more stuff in the weeks to come...hope you like! --Jfrankc08 04:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: Courses
Hi Jolie, thanks for your note. These are interesting and provocative (in a good way!) questions. I think the underlying context of all this is that everyone has a different conception of what education is, and how it should be structured, organised, facilitated. This is all to the good - and we've always explicitly been trying to figure out how to structure and facilitate a wide range of educational activities and possibilities. So, some people like to construct entire courses; some people prefer to create materials which can be loosely aggregated and interlinked as various needs and preferences dictate; and others prefer to encourage development of common interest-based learning projects. And, if you think about it, there really is no single definition of what a "course" is - this is always going to depend on the particular people and interests involved in a given dynamic. A course is not necessarily "traditional" (whatever that means). What is important, however - and what we haven't thus far been good enough at, IMO - is making explicit the assumptions and goals of variously arranged materials, so as to enable the learner (and the educator/editor) to evaluate the resource on its own terms, and see whether it fits with their particular needs (or could be improved upon). This requires better structuring and tagging/categorisation - which McCormack was working on (see Help:Resource types) before the drama got too much for him. :-( So, I encourage you to continue shaping your (our) thoughts on how courses can be constructed on Wikiversity - for a start, there's Courses which could do with critical (in a good way) reading/editing/expansion... Cormaggio talk 16:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia list of interested course developers
Hi! Thanks for your contribution to the Wikipedia course! Would you like to add your name to the list of interested course developers? Best regards Mange01 08:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Preview
Might I suggest you use the preview button more in the future when editing articles? That way you'd be able to condense several edits down into one—this saves on server bandwidth and hosting, as well as makes it easier for people to browse the history page. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 21:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Relosophy
I've begun work on an introductory section, listing some of the ideas which can be explored in Relosophy. I would love feedback. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 06:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

IYA2009
I've started a page to coordinate the creation of new learning projects at Topic:International Year of Astronomy. Any ideas? --mikeu talk 20:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * very nice. I look forward to seeing this stuff defined.--JoliePA 13:09, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

about course
Hi! I want to give courses about History of Ottoman empire, History of modern Turkey, Geography of Turkey, Anatolia, Middle East, Asia, America, Africa, Europe. What should I do? May I open this courses? Good works... --Bermanya 14:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Invite To Human Legacy Course
Hello! I saw that you have a strong interest in history from your profile and different courses that you teach. Based on that, I just wanted to give you a small invite to a course that I made called the Human Legacy Course. This course is basically the broad subject of world history rolled up into one specific course. There is still a lot of work to be done on it, but students can enroll at anytime. If you have any questions regarding the course or anything at all, please do not hesitate to send me a message and I will get back to you as soon as possible. Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. --MrABlair23 14:38, 24 June 2010 (UTC)