Wikiversity:Colloquium/Note from KYPark


 * Moved from: Colloquium

To User:Moulton

 * Ain't you unforgivably childish to keep calling Ottava by his or her real name who indeed hates being so called? Keep being so, making me waste my life, and you'll keep being globally and indefinitely blocked. Understood? -- KYPark [T] 00:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * He doesn't hate it. It's just a convenient excuse for him to exhibit his penchant for wagging his B&D banhammer at me.  —Moulton 02:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, understood, granted that he indeed hates it? -- KYPark [T] 04:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Why would anyone hate their own name? It doesn't make sense. —Albatross 05:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Make it simple; take it easy; and be convinced it's gonna be alright. For there's no reason whatsoever for blocking you globally and indefinitely, I'm quite sure, except that you just keep calling him or her by his or her real name. Won't you just stop it right away, Moulton? Understood? -- KYPark [T] 10:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting how a guy who spent two years telling people that they can't possibly know what another thinks or feels is suddenly assuming what I think or feel. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * [Later inserted by KYPark]


 * Ottava have you read "A Pack of Cards, a Moiety of Trolls, and Thou"? —Montana Mouse 05:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Moulton is demonstrating an apparent attachment to his narrow interpretation of the situation, such that anyone reading him and trusting his account and judgment would end up severely misled. Ottava is certainly not "wagging his banhammer," not the ban end, anyway. He's holding out the claw end that can unblock. Ottava made an offer to unblock with a condition. Whenever we offer to act to assist another, we may set conditions, and only if one is the only one who could act to assist would these conditions possibly stray into coercive abuse. In this case, Ottava has not blocked Moulton, and has not threatened to block him. KYPark is a newcomer here, if I'm correct. He sees the situation. He may or may not realize that many others have said roughly the same thing to Moulton. Whether Ottava "hates" the use of his real name or not is beside the point. Moulton, perhaps he's engaging in some "action research"! What if he is testing to see what you will do when faced with a 'real-name situation,' i.e., a user who expresses discomfort with the use of any name other than the user name.
 * My point, generally, is that there existed conditions when Moulton was originally blocked that make it complex to judge whether the blocks were deeply proper or not, and we could argue for centuries over it (or maybe with good process we could find some kind of consensus, but we don't have good process until we establish it). The important issue is how we proceed from now on. Moulton has an opportunity to join that, or he -- and JWS -- can continue beating dead horses, which is messy and rather distracting, eh? We have the right to stop that, and I'm not shy to act, respecting such shreds of due process which can be mustered. --Abd 15:39, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * [You may jump to to keep on track or in context.]

--JWSchmidt 19:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "narrow interpretation of the situation" <-- Shall we widen our perspectives just a bit more, lest anyone "end up severely misled"? Abd said, "Ottava has not blocked Moulton, and has not threatened to block him". In fact, yesterday Ottava said, "There is no policy keeping me from blocking people who post names. So, until Wikiversity has a policy, I will continue to enforce the blocks." Today, Ottava blocked Moulton.
 * Thank heaven for little timestamps. At the time that Moulton complained about Ottava "wagging his banhammer," Ottava had not yet blocked Moulton. The block came later, and is possibly part of a procedural action, undoing the unblock of Darklama, which Darklama may not have anticipated would create a real unblock situation. I didn't notice the block until later, I guess I can't check the block status every minute.... What I wrote was true as of the time of the edit I was responding to. Which was the point: charges being made that weren't true. In this case, it's somewhat possible that the charges were a self-fulfilling prophecy.... And I see signs that, not just this time, Moulton has successfully trolled administrators and custodians into taking excessive or "unjustified" action, which he can then complain about, in an ever-escalating spiral. I've concluded -- much to my surprise, in fact, having been myself an oft-rejected critic of wiki governance -- that Moulton was justly, if not properly, banned. But it is not crucial to me that Moulton accept this, and Moulton's humiliation is not part of my agenda, indeed it is contrary to it. I'd just like to see the larger community, which includes Moulton, start finding ways to cooperate, and I think it's possible, with time and patience. The present disruption postpones that day, so it must stop. I'll be able to show better examples in the future, I believe.
 * In any case, we now have a clear blocking custodian who is local and responsible to us as a community. That's progress, in my view. --Abd 00:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. How do I create a real unblock situation? I didn't anticipate anything, other than my own recusal from any further decision or action with regard to Moulton's status on this project for the unforeseeable future. -- dark lama  00:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps so are all of us, Darklama. And, Abd, you are suggesting we are trapped by a vicious circle. I agree; both sides are more or less responsible. So they desperately need an unconditional cease-fire for the peace of the community, which is above all. Unblocking Moulton is the easiest way to that end in a way, I strongly believe as many others may do. -- KYPark [T] 02:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I welcome you here indeed, Abd, because I'd like to remind you (and of course other admins) of Zhuge Liang in ancient China who captured the southern rebel leader,  Meng Huo, seven different times, but released him each time in order to achieve Meng's genuine surrender. That's all. -- KYPark [T] 16:15, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. Got it. Thanks. However, we have no means to capture anyone here. The power of custodians is illusory. As to Moulton, I'm working on it. Almost met him last weekend, but it turned out to be impossible. I'm in this for the long haul. --Abd 00:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Metaphorically, blocking is capture, as both are depriving of freedom. I appreciate your effort for his unblocking. BTW, could you kindly email me why it is impossible? -- KYPark [T] 02:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, understood, granted that he indeed hates it? -- KYPark [T] 04:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Make it simple; take it easy; and be convinced it's gonna be alright. For there's no reason whatsoever for blocking you globally and indefinitely, I'm quite sure, except that you just keep calling him or her by his or her real name. Won't you just stop it right away, Moulton? Understood? -- KYPark [T] 10:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting how a guy who spent two years telling people that they can't possibly know what another thinks or feels is suddenly assuming what I think or feel. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

This above in gray font is moved upward to the decent level. -- KYPark [T] 02:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

A Guide for the Perplexed
Don't be perplexed among the word, the thought (idea or reference), and the thing (reality or referent), as painfully crudely associated to each other in the triangle of reference (1923). My word "indeed hates" is a mere word at worst, perhaps representing more or less of my thought or belief as such at best, but perhaps not the reality at worst. From the word, indeed, you could not surely judge the thought, not to mention the reality. Moulton had been right to argue in this perspective in the past. Nevertheless, he was born, or cursed, a human to say such words, whether referring to the true or false reality. -- KYPark [T] 04:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * KYPark, I'm not sure if you saw Moulton's reply to your question. --JWSchmidt 15:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I did see and understand it enough. But unfortunately it hardly helps me make it simple in my way, I fear. I'd just go my way. -- KYPark [T] 15:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There seems to be no moral principle such that you should or should not call her by her real or nick name. But there must be one such that you should not do to her what she dislikes indeed. I hope this could be a fair explanation. -- KYPark [T] 15:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * One would think this easy to understand, but the clouds get in the way. --Abd 00:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Keep imagineering or social-engineering
Who on earth looks like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, whence such fussy messy disruptions used to rise, hence the evilest personality you should better drive out of the community before "the bad money drives out the good"? -- KYPark [T] 01:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Keep watching science war within
Science is war in a way, politics in another, hence Machiavellianism. More specifically, such is the case with scientific revolutions, paradigms and scholarships. Not only methodologically but also phenomenally, this view is well according to Thomas Kuhn's (1962) revolutionary, and Paul Feyerabend's (1975) anarchic sociology of science. As such, scientists and scholars have to do with any means of power, say, even the WMF custodianship, by all means! -- KYPark [T] 07:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I disagree that science is war. Take Darwin, Newton and Einstein for instance. They are icons of science and did they fight wars? No, most of the time, Darwin and Newton were fascinated about the world, trying to understand it in detail. They came to numerous theories and experiments and explained for us the world. Einstein did the same, but he also liked to enjoy his fame and have a lot of girlfriends.
 * Scientists do have a lot of fights over the truth of their assertions, but the postmodernists aren't right that science is only about that. Agreements are made on the best possible knowledge available, and like Newton said, there is always the possibility of mistakes. So, he asks people to check his results, in order to make sure that he is right. You can't check science by fighting wars. You check science with experiments and doing the math. Thomas Kuhn is too simplistic to focus primarily on the subjectivity and the and the need for consensus within the scientific community. Truth is what science is about in the first place, and the fascination with nature and the world around us.
 * Science was able to come to the fore thanks to a concern among many moderate Europeans with the way catholics and protestants were slaughtering each other and making life miserable for everyone. Science became one of the pillars, next to culture, enlightened politics, to make a better world. There was a desire in this temporary life, to make life more beautiful. Wikiversity could be a place where the enlightenment ideals can be relived. Not because the proponents of enlightenment are always right, but because it is a means of enjoying a good time as a person in your temporary life. I can refer to Voltaire, George Washinton, Thomas Jefferson, Karl Marx, John Stuart Mill, emperor Rudolph II and many others to support my views.Daanschr 14:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * No doubt, science is science and war is war. It is in a way or metaphorically, however, that science is war as well as love is war. Until 1974, scientists and philosophers spoke ill of metaphors that sounds unreasonable. But the mainstream cognitive theory has changed so as to take them seriously.
 * "Take Darwin" -- Darwinism has been at war with creationism for one and half centuries. Modern science has grown up from the ashes of scientific martyrs burnt at the stake. During the Inquisition, Galileo Galilei told a lie that the earth stood still. Set free, he murmured to himself that the earth revolves.
 * "Scientists do have a lot of fights over the truth of their assertions, but the postmodernists aren't right that science is only about that." That's it! You got it!
 * Fight to prove "Thomas Kuhn is too simplistic to focus primarily on the subjectivity," etc. Then you'll win against one of the greatest sociologists of science. Go ahead!
 * "Voltaire" -- Please read: Will Durant (1926) The Story of Philosophy, Chapter V. "Voltaire and the French Enlightenment," esp., viii. "Écrasez l'Infame" ("Destroy shamelessness!" (my trans.) appended to every letter to his colleagues.), and find how he fought through his life all the way down to the very tomb. -- KYPark [T] 15:55, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I forgot to mention the spectacular war between Newton and Leibniz you must know. Personally I believe it is Leibniz who invented the infinitesimal calculus, while most others may believe it is Newton. So I have to struggle very hard to upset them, perhaps endangering even my life! Such is science. -- KYPark [T] 17:22, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Scientists try to determine the facts. There is no reason to fight wars over the facts. 1+1=2 and nothing else. The wars you refer to are wars on opinions.
 * Voltaire did more with his life than fighting. He came with a positive ideal of how we can live our lives without religious conflict, and than later became pessimistic and wrote his book Candide where the horros of life became more apperent. My take on his work is that he tries to say that we should enjoy the beauty of life, try to make the world better, and sadly also have to endure hardships.Daanschr 17:09, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Out of courtesy, would it be possible if you reply after the reply of someone else? Otherwise the discussion appears most untidy and it will be hard for outsiders to follow the discussion as it evolves.
 * For those following this discussion, KYPark added a reply after my reply, which is signed with the apropriate time mark. I will repeat this reply for a second time, to make sure that others know what i am responding to.

I forgot to mention the spectacular war between Newton and Leibniz you must know. Personally I believe it is Leibniz who invented the infinitesimal calculus, while most others may believe it is Newton. So I have to struggle very hard to upset them, perhaps endangering even my life! Such is science. -- KYPark [T] 17:22, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * For science it doesn't matter much who came with certain knowledge, the most important thing is the knowledge in itself. I don't agree that the word war should apply in the argument Newton and Leibniz had with each other, because there weren't any soldiers and bloodshed involved.Daanschr 17:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, they try to describe the facts of the world on the one hand, and prescribe the values on the other. The task is not always so simple as a simple arithmetic '1+2=3'. More often it looks so difficult that they set up such and such theories to explain (away, at worst) phenomena or appearances rather than facts (exactly). Thus, the critical in science are theories rather than facts. The atomic structure is not a matter of fact but theory.
 * I never said that science is wholly war, not to mention holy war, but a warring aspect in a way, in a sense, or in part, nor that Voltaire fought all the time but "all the way to the very tomb" in abstract and rather exaggerating rhetoric. When he died, the church denied him to be buried around Paris. So his friends made the death sit in the coach to pretend to be alive, and drove far away to beg for a grave of a remote grave yard. Doesn't the dead man look like struggling to the deadly last?
 * Let's disregard the unfortunate coincidental edit collision. I've no idea how the computer behaves.
 * You are supposed to be very literal. Bloodshed is not an absolute condition of any war, say, cold war. You need to know how cruel Newton was and how Leibniz was upset. It was far more than word war. It may have been worse than a bloody war. -- KYPark [T] 18:30, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The world is complex and we haven't got a fundamental theory of everything, and even if we do there are still a lot of complicated phenomena that cannot be explained from first principles. So there are partial products in the form of competing theories, which can be thought of as different means of organising the data that people think would work best; and different schools would fight for the scarce resources, in particular, publicity, funding, and graduate freshmen; and, yes, in the case of Newton and Leibniz, the attribution of new ideas. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 18:53, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Exactly, Hillgentleman. You almost finish it up. Thanks. -- KYPark [T] 01:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * By focusing too much on the strife between scientists and between scientists and christianity, the scientific knowledge itself dissapears from attention. I don't like the idea of having to fight wars all my life. I like to live in a civilization where people respect each other. The last thing is what the enlightenment is about.Daanschr 08:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep watching science war within focally though implicitly aims for you and anyone else "to live in a civilization where people respect each other," Daanschr. Be convinced this is exactly what I mean, whatever words I used. Society is the end while science is a mere means, as I suggest in the last passage of the next section, reading "Let's destroy it for a better society rather than a better science, which is for the former." Nevertheless, you by no means should underestimate and neglect the mere means, which by nature may be more dangerous than the atomic bomb!
 * -- KYPark [T] 09:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It isn't dangerous at all.Daanschr 10:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The atomic bomb, for example, is a product hence part of science. Isn't it dangerous at all indeed? Oh, my, Daanschr. -- KYPark [T] 12:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That is true. Though science can't be entirely blamed for it. The 20th century saw a number of bloody ideological wars, fought partly by the enemies of science, like the Nazis and the American conservatives. There is an even larger danger than atomic bombs at the moment, for which science can't be missed. Some climate scientists warn that the destruction of our natural habitat due to overpopulation and industry will lead to the eventual extinction of us humans, because water and air might become toxic for us. Only scientific insight can lead the way to preserving human kind.Daanschr 12:39, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * For me, you are not objectively describing but subjectively prescribing science into what is flawless hence all goodness, namely, scientism in the pejorative sense. Neutrally and unfortunately, however, science is both good and evil, either good or evil, hence Janus-faced anyway. Evil science made the atomic bomb.
 * Scientific masters of honor may be able to synthesize scientific monsters of horror by manipulating stem cells in the future. All scientists are not good guys. They may plagiarize, deceive, and dare to wage even immoral science wars. Have a look at the Sokal hoax. For so many reasons, science should be kept under stringent social control.
 * All I'm saying at last is make science for society. And it should start right here I'm not happy about right now! Therefore I have to keep saying until I get happy again. Please pay attention to the wider context, that is,  as a coherent whole. -- KYPark [T] 13:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * One more comment: The Nazis were not the enemies but masters of science. And environmental deterioration is mostly the side effect of science at best. -- KYPark [T] 14:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hitler had many superstitious believes, including the believe in god, which is very pronounced in Mein Kampf. Also, he attacked the evolution theory, by stating that animals were created by god and not gradually evolved. So, that makes him an enemy of science. He also wanted to return to a more agrarian kind of society.Daanschr 14:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hitler waged various science wars in addition to the bloody war. This fact proves that he never underestimated science. Nazi Germany was a leader in most military fields of science and technology, say, atomic bombs, rockets, aircrafts, submarines, cars, etc., though they lost the atomic game by a hair-breath. German rocket scientists were later thankfully shared by the USSR and the US. The Nazi German Volkswagen Beetle had been produced since 1938 until 2003. All these was possible since Nazi Germany was a leader in science at large. Meanwhile, Nazi Germany was less religious than the US, and Hitler was almost atheist in reality. -- KYPark [T] 15:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * If Hitler was an atheist, why would he claim that the Aryans came from the Garden of Eden? The Nazis used these technology temporarily to conquer the world, in which they failed. Afterwards they wanted to control science as worldmasters.Daanschr 17:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Revisit  including the passage reading "From the word, indeed, you could not surely judge the thought, not to mention the reality." Hitler was so infamous for brainwashing and propaganda. It would be too daring and implausible, I fear, for you to try to infer from his words of likely infamy ("shamefulness and shamelessness" in my words) that he was theist. We should also "destroy infamy" (Voltaire) of his fascist kind out there, in addition to within.
 * In 1938, when Hitler was abusing science for another world war, while brainwashing his people, H. G. Wells proposed World Brain aka World Encyclopedia to use science for the universal enlightenment, anti-brainwashing, and world peace after all. The Wikipedia plus its sisters is such a World Brain in action that you and I can collaborate to aim science for society. What a utilitarian idea! Then the world population should safeguard it, I believe. -- KYPark [T] 14:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It is not only Nazi Germany but also all the world powers that would use science and technology to be more powerful and privileged. In this perspective, eugenics used to be one of the prevailing scientific agendas back then, coordinating with a number of problematic and implausible doctrines such as imperialism, colonialism, Eurocentrism, white supremacy, Nazi Aryanism, racism, anti-Semitism, innatism, etc. It is such an evil science, if not pseudo-science, I fear. -- KYPark [T] 15:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Destroy shamefulness and shamelessness within first
This is my version of what Voltaire, the gate keeper of French encyclopedism, used to shout at the end of his letters. Newton was unforgivably cruel, shameful and shameless, granted that Leibniz indeed invented the infinitesimal calculus earlier than Newton and Newton knew the fact. This is not to get into that historical muddle, but to suggest the possibility that even the greatest scientists and scholars of celebrity could be too shameful and shameless, and the impossibility of insisting that there are no such ones here. Let's destroy it for a better society rather than a better science, which is for the former. -- KYPark [T] 01:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Keep reading ideas beyond ideas beyond words
[This is a sequel to .]

Or, keep reading forms between ideas between words, as originally suggested by the triangle of reference (1923). This dictum would help read between the lines, look squarely at what is said, "face facts as they are," or "face up to the reality."

As such, this is not an original research but just my rewording of the triangle in the millennia old Platonic terms. The word "thing" is too ambiguous and confusing from the beginning. The "dragon" may stand for no reality out there in the natural world, but a form out there in the cultural community of practice. The Social Construction of Reality (1966) thus makes sense of it.

Thus, everybody is supposed to have in mind (in here in my case) a more or less subjective and specifically situated idea or "copy" of the objective and permanent Platonic idea or form of consensus out there, in the community of practice. The prescribed norm is a form, too. Thus, you cannot help but keep asking what is the idea, form or norm of consensus in this very community of practice, whether WM or WV, beyond the custodian ideas and words! Understood?

-- KYPark [T] 01:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Be more convinced of yin and yang
Everything is not in isolation but in context, hence the Janus-faced holon as per Arthur Koestler (1978):
 * Yin and yang
 * Dark and light
 * Chaos and cosmos
 * Mystery and mastery
 * Whole (roughly) and part
 * Implication and explication
 * Context and something in focus
 * Submerged and surfaced of an iceberg
 * Rest and crest of a cock, mountain, etc.
 * Inaction (then reaction) and action
 * Condition and reflex, and so on, respectively.

Anything known or explicit emerges from the unknown or implicit context which is yin, the rest, or the whole minus a part as yang. To know is to make the implicit explicit.

All the phenomena of this wiki virtual reality inherently begin and end with no more than 0 and 1 in action and reaction, hence worth the first principle. In corollary, such would be the reali-life case with yin and yang in action (or revolution) and reaction.

At, Hillgentleman says that we miss a fundamental theory of everything. Now I would withdraw my response "Exactly!" and suggest that science hold yin and yang in action and reaction as its first principle.

Let a fart (as yang) like a rocket! And the universe (as yin) would surely react, mechanically, chemically, physiologically, socially, and so on. Ask New Zealanders how seriously they take farts that sheep let.

Take custodianship for example. The WV custodian acts, and the rest (or context) of the world surely reacts, latently and patently, invisibly and visibly, I bet! The foolish are foolish to see only what is seen, the tip of the iceberg. The wise are wise to see also what is unseen, the submerged as well as surfaced iceberg. The effect of blocking and deleting, for example, may be not so much seen as unseen.

-- KYPark [T] 03:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Be more convinced of a World Brain
The empiricism-critical rationalist Karl Popper scathed the poverty of historicism (1936) of predictability in particular.

You infer from your natural experiences or conditioned reflexes in large numbers and certainly predict that the sun rises in the east tomorrow morning. You are born such a historicist! However, such may barely or rarely be the case with the future social events perhaps because of such reflexes in small numbers that you remain a historicist of more or less accuracy or poverty of social prediction.

Outstandingly, however, the English science fiction father and historian of global influence, H. G. Wells, so well predicted the atomic bomb (1914-1945=31) and the World Brain (1938-2000=62) in addition to the World War II.

In this regard, as the chief science officer of the U.S. during the WW II (1939-45) and author of the two relative articles "Mechanization and the Record" (1939) unpublished and eventually "As We May Think" (1945), Vannevar Bush is strikingly associated with those two Wellsian agendas of human destiny.

It is fair to say that the Wiki links partly owe to Bush. But the Wiki identity as a World Brain as a whole well owes to Wells almost exclusively, regardless of its explicit acknowledgment. Such is historicity and historicism! Historicity, otherwise than positivist recorded history, always exists in the widest context or horizon, at the highest level of bird's-eye view, latently and patently, regardless of records!

Logical positivists and historians proud of analytic philosophical stance would require hard recorded evidence to prove the Wiki identity as such. But it is a pity that without enough historical records, they may not truthfully explain the reason why Balhae perished such that:
 * "Recent study suggests that the downfall of Balhae is largely due to the catastrophic eruption in the 10th century of Baekdu Mountain..."

From this historical perspective, the Wiki whole is the very historical World Brain in action and evolution, regardless of its explicit acknowledgment as such, the whole world has latently and patently collaborated to help come true. Therefore it should never degenerate into mere vested interests.

-- KYPark [T] 06:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Learn a lesson from Yuri Geller

 * [under construction]