Wikiversity talk:Student union/Archive/September 2008

Archive of deletion proposal
''This page was proposed for deletion and discussed for a period of about 8 months. The discussion has been moved here as it contains suggestions about the future development of this page.'' --McCormack 07:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This page is an ancient relic from a time when it looked like a good idea. It's unlikely this page will ever be developed, and it might encourage silliness. Short of deleting it, we might also tag it as "historical". --McCormack 09:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "might encourage silliness" <-- I have a strong conviction that play is an important part of how humans learn. I do not accept that "might encourage silliness" is a valid reason to delete something from Wikiversity. In any case, the page was created for a serious purpose. At many places of learning, students get together to share strategies for learning. It is constructive to have a place where students can take note of their learning needs and take action to help each other. In a wiki, this kind of behavior is widely distributed, but eventually there will be a Portal:Students that functions as a directory for Wikiversity pages that are of particular interest to students. Creating needed portal pages is one of the things I do, and I request that this page not be marked "historical" until I have the chance to start Portal:Students. --JWS 15:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's probably unlikely that this page would have been developed if it hadn't annoyed someone, who then brought it to wider attention ;-), so I both thank McCormack, and agree with JWS's proposal to turn it into something useful like a Students' Portal. However, I think a students' union is not just pages which would be of interest to students, but also would be a way for students to socialise and discuss goals, interests, experiences etc. Does that correspond with your vision for Portal:Students? Cormaggio talk 19:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * When we originally identified students, teachers, and researchers as types of people who we would try to make feel welcome at Wikiversity, even before the launch of Wikiversity, I started making pages for these kinds of participants. While I like the idea of trying to blur the lines between conventional categories such as "student" and "learner" and "teacher" at Wikiversity, I think there will always be participants who come here and identify themselves as students. I hope such participants find many ways to socialize and discuss their goals, interests, experiences. I originally wanted a central location for coordination of such activities. Now that we have the portal namespace, I think it makes sense to have portal page play this role. I got around to making Portal:Research relatively early because we were tasked with establishing research policy. --JWSchmidt 21:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - I think this could potentially be developed further. --Remi 02:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * merge with Portal:Participants - seems to be a duplication and if we consolidate this material it is less confusing for newcomers about where to participate. Having too many pages that attempt the same thing dilutes efforts to develop these pages.  --mikeu talk 17:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - some students need a certain page still like an anchor - especially when they are not used to wiki. Is there no other page/learning resource devoted so far to this "group" ? It could be linked now or later always from the Portal:Participants. Erkan Yilmaz uses the Chat (try) 17:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Give it time, already user's have begun editing and altering the article - we could even have it as a portal linking to some of the important articles or directories which some students may find helpful or interesting. DarkMage  17:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Further thoughts
Since tagging this with delete about six months back, I've had a portal project in the back of my head for about 3 or 4 months now. The idea was to beef up this page into a proper portal with a lot of useful content instead, as per the above suggestions. However I never had time to do this - so much other editing. As of 1st September 2008, User:JWSchmidt has posted a lot of material on the page about me (not on the talk page; on the page itself) which is probably intended to be offensive and provocative. I would appreciate it if any custodian or non-custodian would undo User:JWSchmidt's edits. Many thanks in advance to whomever does this. --McCormack 17:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that things written at begin were too personalizing. I have edited it to make it less personal. Is this ok for you already ? If not, how about writing to the user's talk page, so there is no excuse of not seeing your comment here. Another way would be to add a second project of the month (the topic could be perhaps the actual "Student Study Project of the Month"). There are more ways, I hope that both editors soon realize what is important. Erkan Yilmaz uses the Chat (try) 18:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Closing the discussion
The consensus has long been overwhelmingly for "keep" as per User:Cormaggio, User:Remi, User:Mu301 and others. As Cormaggio pointed out a long time ago, it was precisely by listing the page here that ideas grew about what to do with the page. It is a shame that User:JWSchmidt personalised the issue, devalued the page with his edits and then linked the page directly from the main page (while still tagged for deletion) just to highlight his personal attacks. The page needs to be wound back to an earlier version, the deletion tag removed as per consensus, and then some sensible edits added. Two users suggested merging with Portal:Participants. Perhaps temporarily redirect there. --McCormack 20:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, a redirect for now would be just fine. If someone can do with this page what was done at Participants (ie, turn it into something somewhat useful), it would be nice.  The Jade Knight 07:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The proposal that this page be replace by Portal:Participants is absurd. Why not also propose that Wikiversity teachers redirect to Portal:Participants? McCormack and Jade Knight do not want to invite students to participate at Wikiversity. Fine. They can go edit other Wikiversity pages. Leave this page to people who do want students to participate. --JWSchmidt 13:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * JWSchmidt appears to be too busy driving current participants away from Wikiversity to be interested in inviting students to participate. (The previous comment was intended to be rhetorically effective, just as your own was, and to give you a sense of what you're saying.)  Seriously, though, JW, I recommend you step away from this page for a little while and cool down.  You're being really hostile here.  If you have something constructive to contribute, do it.  Not these thinly-veiled personal attacks.  The Jade Knight 15:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You try to destroy the work of another editor and you call me hostile? That's sad. --JWSchmidt 16:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a wiki. People edit pages to make them better. You can't take ownership of a page as high profile as this one. You'll have to work with others to get them to agree that your added change is a good thing. I don't think constantly calling other editors of this encyclopedia sad and attributing motives to their actions that they don't have is going to get you there. Try another tactic. Salmon of Doubt 16:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm suggesting that you try editing constructively before you try to destroy the work of others. Since when is editing and developing a page "taking ownership"? "calling other editors of this encyclopedia" <-- I suppose you have only been here for a few weeks and only made a few hundred edits so you may not have noticed that this is not an encyclopedia. If I make a mistake in my attempts to understand other editors, correct me. --JWSchmidt 18:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Using this page to effectively convince people to participate here
My edit to this page (http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Student_union&diff=317304&oldid=317302) removed all of the meta-discussion about this page from this page. If this page is to be successful, and it should be, it needs to be clear and not confusing. Throwing new student users of the encyclopedia in the middle of deletion discussions and internal project arguments is counter productive to the goal of encouraging student participation. Salmon of Doubt 13:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * True, but elimination of the page is even more counter productive. Apparently, students are going to have to fight for the right to participate at Wikiversity. They should be informed about this state of affairs right at the start. --JWSchmidt 14:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The page is not being eliminated. There is no current proposal to eliminate the page. I agree with McCormack above - "It is a shame that User:JWSchmidt personalised the issue, devalued the page with his edits and then linked the page directly from the main page to highlight his personal attacks." Perhaps you should consider reverting the page to a useful version rather than one that engages in action research and special learning excersises (these both appear to be codewords for "abnormally disruptive behavior," but what do I know? Salmon of Doubt 14:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Earlier today (see earlier edits on this page) it was suggested that it would be a good idea to redirect this page to the participants portal page. That is a proposal for eliminating this page. Earlier, a call was made for the page to be expanded, so I have worked to expand the page. I think an introductory learning project about how students are treated at Wikiversity is useful content for this page. --JWSchmidt 14:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Expand the page with useful content, not hostility. The only example of how students at Wikiversity are treated is the example of how you are being hostile to McCormack.  You are creating an environment of shame here.  The Jade Knight 15:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In what sense is creating a learning exercise about attempts to delete the student portal page "hostile"? --JWSchmidt 16:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The same way your "Trout of Doubt" learning exercise and associated songs are hostile. You don't make mainspace projects about other contributors to the university. It's just rude. Try to think about how things look to the audience, not the writer. Salmon of Doubt 16:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please explain in detail what you find to be "rude". --JWSchmidt 17:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Is there anyone other than you who finds your version of this page to provide more value than the consensus version? Right now three users of this project are telling you to stop talking about deletionism in the Student Union, but you keep doing so. How can we get you to stop reverting this page to your preferred version and instead discuss whatever changes you would like to make and reach consensus on them on the talk page? Salmon of Doubt 16:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Consensus means everyone agrees and no one disagrees. At least two of us disagree, so there is no consensus.  Please do not assert consensus where no such unanimous consent exists.  —Moulton 20:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm editing so as to develop the page. All evidence indicates that you three just want to either, 1) prevent students from participating at Wikiversity 2) prevent students from knowing that they are not welcome or 3) prevent students from exploring the question of why some Wikiversity participants favor deletionism and censorship. This page is the main portal for students, and these attitudes (1-3) are of critical importance to student participants at Wikiversity. Can you suggest something else that is more important to put on the page? If so, please add it in to the page. --JWSchmidt 17:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, so it's one great conspiracy? The wikiversity community is out to undermine Wikiversity?  No one here is fooled by your pretense of adding content here, JWSchmidt.  What you are doing is being hostile to other Wikiversity users.  75% of the users here think so, at least, and if one was to remove the 2 main participants in this issue (you and McCormack), then 100% of what's left (all two of us) thinks you're acting uncivily.  We all think students should participate in Wikipedia; that's why we're recommending they go to Portal:Participants.  The key word here is participant.  Why are you so opposed to having students participate?  The Jade Knight 17:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * For clarification, I have no problems with directing students to the Student Union as long as it does not have the meta-section about deletionism which would serve to do little more than confuse. Salmon of Doubt 17:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no problems with directing students to the Student Union as long as a) it does not have the section with McCormack = Deletionism, and b) it has content about student involvement. The Jade Knight 17:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The "see also" section of the page has a link to Portal:Participants. If you want more of a pointer to that page, then create a new page section where you discuss the idea that Wikiversity participants who self-identify as "students" are "Wikiversity participants". Assume Good Faith. Please explain the basis for your false assumption that I'm opposed to having students participate. --JWSchmidt 17:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Confusion is the first step toward Enlightenment. —Moulton 17:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You've assumed bad faith on the part of me, Salmon, and McCormack. You refuse to accept consensus.  You are acting antagonistically towards a Wikiversity user.  And you dare to tell us to assume good faith?  You've already illustrated your assuming of bad faith by:
 * Assuming bad faith on our parts
 * Refusing to listen to consensus
 * Acting hostily towards other participants
 * Pretending like you're not doing anything antagonistic (this is called "deception" or "denial")
 * Insisting that only your view encourages students to participate on Wikiversity, and that ours discourage them.
 * Misconstruing our edits.
 * Have I left anything off? The Jade Knight 17:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Have I left anything off?" <-- I don't know. It looks like you are playing the tired old game of throwing everything you can imagine against the wall in the hope that one item might stick. I've asked for clarification of your "charges" on the Colloquium. --JWSchmidt 18:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated Theories of Mind
Jade, I am interested in learning how you form theories of mind of your adversaries. In the above, you have presented interesting theories of the beliefs ("assumptions"), desires, intentions, and pretensions of knowledge of JWS. I personally find it difficult to construct an accurate theory of mind of my own adversaries, so I am curious to learn how one does this. Would you be kind enough to unpack for me your evidence and reasoning to support your remarkable theory of mind regarding the cognitive-emotive state of JWS? —Moulton 18:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * FYI: this is the sort of thing you ask an individual user, not post on a general talk page.  The Jade Knight 21:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit by McCormack
I'm failing to see how this edit improves anything. What am I missing? The Jade Knight 15:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It dosen't mater. JWS has reverted to his preferred version with the entire page consisting mainly of meta discussion that the rest of the contributors here have deemed counterproductive. Is this how the english wikiversity is run? Salmon of Doubt 15:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Evidently it's how JWSchmidt thinks Wikiversity is to be run. JWSchmidt, please accept consensus and stop posting hostile material.  The Jade Knight 15:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please explain how the learning exercise you are so eager to delete is "hostile material". Isn't your attempt to delete the work of others what is actually hostile? --JWSchmidt 16:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Removing hostile material is not hostile, it's helpful. Adding hostile material is hostile. Salmon of Doubt 16:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Would you be kind enough to supply us with your definition of 'hostile'? —Moulton 16:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Moulton, you'll want to tread very lightly, lest an uninvolved party determine that you are wikistalking me. I don't think anyone would want that to happen. And: "no." Salmon of Doubt 16:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that you had committed to "presenting a balanced, objective, accurate, and informative account of all relevant scholarly evidence, facts, analysis, and ideas within all scholarly topics of study in the interest of full disclosure and honesty." Was I laboring under a misconception?  Do you not intend to keep your sincere voluntary commitment to the precepts of Scholarly Ethics?  —Moulton 16:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll be kind enough to give you M-W's definition of hostile:
 * 1 a: of or relating to an enemy b: marked by malevolence c: openly opposed or resisting d (1): not hospitable  (2): having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature
 * It is definitions 1b and 1d which may be applicable here, particularly 1d. The Jade Knight 16:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't yet have any evidence that Salmon of Doubt's concept of 'hostile' concords with that of Merriam-Webster. —Moulton 17:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems self-evident to me. But then, you and Salmon aren't known for seeing eye-to-eye, from what I gather.  That said, would you please stop antagonizing him?  I don't mind you being here with your pretense of academic research, but could you stop the teasing?  The Jade Knight 17:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Jade Knight, I think I understand your "reasoning". The attempt to delete the main student portal of Wikiversity is constructive editing, but when JWSchmidt develops the student portal page, his work towards development of a Wikiversity learning resource for student participants is "hostile". I'm afraid you have your thinking reversed. --JWSchmidt 17:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, the main student portal of Wikiversity is Portal:Participants. Compare that one to this and it's obvious which is more useful as a student portal.  Secondly, you're not developing this page as a resource for students.  Instead you're turning it into an object lesson of "don't mess with JWSchmidt while he god-modes with Wikiversity".  By removing your comments we are trying to reduce or prevent a culture of antagonism on Wikiversity.  It is fine to create a project on deletionism vs. inclusionism at Wikiversity.  That would be great.  But this is neither the place nor the method for doing that.  The Jade Knight 17:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I am interested in studying JWSchmidt's comments on this kerfuffle. Please do not summarily redact his comments.  Doing so deprives me of the subject matter that I am studying.  —Moulton 17:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what page histories are for, Moulton. The Jade Knight 17:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Am I to understand that this present discussion is not contemplating deletion of the Student Union altogether? —Moulton 19:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not, and last time I talked to McCormack about it, he wasn't either. So, AFAIAA, no, it's not.  The Jade Knight 21:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "the main student portal of Wikiversity is Portal:Participants" <-- That's your view. In my view, new arrivals at Wikiversity who self-identify as "student" should be able to go to a page that was designed for students. The "Student union" page has always played that role. As far as I can tell, Portal:Participants does not even include the word "student". As far as I know, the Portal:Participants page was never developed with students in mind and it was not developed with the intention of linking to it from the main page for use when students arrive at Wikiversity for the first time. "you're not developing this page as a resource for students" <-- that's not true. "don't mess with JWSchmidt while he god-modes with Wikiversity" <-- I don't know what you are trying to say. What does "god-modes with Wikiversity" mean? "we are trying to reduce or prevent a culture of antagonism on Wikiversity" <-- my suggestion is that everyone stop trying to destroy the work of other editors...that will greatly reduce the risks of creating antagonism. Try creating something rather than trying to destroy what other people have already created. "create a project on deletionism vs. inclusionism at Wikiversity" <-- This sounds like a good idea, why not get it started? My learning exercise on this page can be a case study. --JWSchmidt 19:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Finally we agree in purpose, I think. Again, you're choosing to disagree with the particulars, fine, let's move past that unless you're really stuck on them.  I think your little experiment would make a great case study, and now it has an appropriate home (you've already gotten it started.  That said, we should probably create an introductory content page for the Inclusonism/Deletionism issue).  Concerning the student Union, I feel that currently, Portal:Participants is a better introduction to student life at Wikiversity, and it is worlds better than the divisive content you posted here.  That said, I think making the Student Union a welcoming-point for Students where they can get appropriate learning resources and explanation is a great idea.  Why don't we discuss what kind of content we'd like to see on the page (I'll make a new section)?  The Jade Knight 21:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Request to study the evolution of Wikiversity from early days to present
Greetings,

I am a researcher who specializes in Learning Theory and Online Educational Systems.

I am interested in studying how modern and progressive Learning Organizations evolve from their initial concept and implementation through evolutionary phases of organization and development to their current culture, values, and operational practices.

I would like to learn from the episode being argued on the project page here how Wikiversity evolved from its early history, so that I can better appreciate how the concept, culture, values, and operational practices of Wikiversity have evolved from the early days to the present epoch. May I be allowed to study that, please, with access to historic documents of the earlier epochs?

Thank you for your consideration in permitting me to study the historic record of this remarkable Learning Organization.

Moulton 16:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is a good starting point for historical investigations: History of Wikiversity. --JWSchmidt 16:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hrmmm... That's a good resource, but it doesn't seem to be fully up to date. I was unable to find any mention of the role of the Wikiversity Student Union in that account.  Perhaps this would be an opportunity to document the historical role of the Wikiversity Student Union before the bulldozers raze it.  —Moulton 16:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If it gets turned into a redirect, there will always be the page history. The Jade Knight 16:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've included some of the history of the Student Union on the Student Union page. Since the deletionists do not want anyone to see it, I made a copy at User:JWSchmidt/Student Union. --JWSchmidt 17:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be helpful if there were a small note on the current Student Union page saying that the Student Union has evolved substantially from its initial conception and inception, along with a link to the archival history for study purposes. Those of us who study the evolutionary dynamics of Learning Communities and Learning Cultures would be most grateful for an unobtrusive pointer to the historical archives.  —Moulton 17:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Why don't you make a learning project on Evolutionary dynamics of Learning Communities and Learning Cultures, then? Go nuts.  Just don't do any character assassination.  The Jade Knight 17:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Please see the Google Knol article, Experiences with Civility and the Role of a Social Contract in Virtual Communities.


 * See also the Overture to Bildungsroman in the Age of Character Assassination from the comic opera, The Ring of the Neener Bomb.


 * Moulton 22:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)