Wikiversity talk:Wikicredentials

" WIKICREDS "  A BOLD LIMITLESS VISION

An Educational Utopia shared by the World's populace through awarded n
Who makes the rules of accreditation?

Who defines what exactly accreditation is ?

Can accreditation be achieved, without spending  $40,000. and more?......

Hello Friends, Teachers and Fellow Students, My name is Gaon, and I firmly believe Wikiversity should include " WikiCredentials " ( WikiCreds ) upon the completion of Testing courses. This would inspire Millions around the world to learn and challenge our societies present accreditation system... and change our culture's perception of credentialism. It is time for freedom of thought to Flourish, where anyone can learn and be accredited, regardless of age, mental capacity, location, economic status or the inability to pay tuition. Wikiversity could rival and surpass the Best education available, If we have the desire and diligence to fulfill this Grand Vision........

it would be The Most Good for the Most People, Literally, Billions of people. Do we have what it takes to fulfill this expansive, innovative and BOLD endeavor? Kind regards, Intelligent Discussion Welcomed.

Sincerely Gaon Abhinava 20:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * "Accreditation" in the field of education, to mean anything, refers to the qualification of schools to award recognized degrees. Any school may award whatever certificates they choose, but that doesn't mean that these will be accepted by other institutions, employers, or regulatory bodies. "Accreditation" is awarded, not to individuals, but to schools, based on a review of their operating characteristics and qualifications. It's a difficult process to become an accredited institution. Accreditation is not awarded based on enthusiasm, it's the product of hard and effective work.


 * Wikiversity cannot award degrees because it has no degree program. However, there are accredited institutions offering courses at Wikiversity, but typically not for general credit. If you take the course through that institution, you may get credit according to their rules.


 * I'll make this brief: Wikiversity itself is not going to award credits toward a degree. It doesn't have and is not set up to build the necessary structures. We have enough trouble even deciding simple policies.


 * Independent organizations may exist or arise that will use Wikiversity courses as part of their program, but they will have to develop the necessary structures if they hope to issue recognized degrees. While it's not impossible to this without (much) money, I do not recommend holding your breath waiting for it. Free schools have been started. They normally fail within a few years. To create a free school that will survive will take much more than enthusiastically writing a few words on the Colloquium here, you will need to actually build the structures and the community to maintain them.


 * If, however, you really want to see this happen, as to Wikiversity, I suggest becoming familiar with this community and how it functions. Get involved. You have a great deal to learn, as well as to contribute. Communication starts with listening. --Abd 13:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I agree, and your reply is the exact info. we need to progress further, I will spend time learning/Contemplating/simplifying... and I will present a proposal at the appropriate time, and yes, I am aware that this will take more than Enthusiasm, it will take the orchestrational, synergistic formulations of collaborative strategy. Thanks again for your constructive mentality and knowledge.---Gaon Abhinava 01:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The 1st Proposal
Greetings.

I would like to make this brief, but it is hard to make a big idea brief, I will Simplify, but there are many Factors.

Wikicredentials, in Simple Terms, is your virtual recorded proof, of High quality distance education, made available to the Populace of the Entire World, Through the Internet,

Very In-expensively.--Gaon Abhinava 01:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok, wikiversity has discussed this before, Obviously, but will we Act on this obvious opportunity, before someone else does?

I'm going to be Blunt, If this idea is possible, would benefit Mankind, and is probably going to be started by someone in the world anyway....Why not Act now on these ideas and have a head start, being the global leader of distance education ? Wikicreds. Type Ideas may be a Future Trend.

It will be hard work, but we can do it, and have fun too.

We must research and Learn from History, the Various Educational Structures, their systems, Strengths and Weaknesses, Mimic the Actions of their Success, and Avoid their Failures. Applying our discoveries, to the Modern Educational System of Distance Learning.

We would need, designed Automated Software, to Create Testing Material, to meet the Demand of the Collective Student Body, along with other imaginative innovations, like Virtual Agents and Combinations of existing interactive software. Think fast, effective and stream-lined, it has to be, for millions of students.

I would like WikiCredentials to be Freely Given, but for the Vision of Wikicreds. to Work, ( in the beginning ) people may have to pay a little money, to Create Jobs for Teachers, and Administrators. Until the System Grows Exponentially... If we had at least 100 Thousand  STUDENTS, Each Paying $50. - $100., Per Semester, this would Generate an income of around $ 8 Million, every Semester, for our Budget. What if we had, 5 million Students?..... how about  1  Billion Students? The More Students we Enroll, The Less Tuition would be charged per Semester, what is 1 billion x $2.00 ? This means that tuition would Fluctuate according to school attendence.

We could also Partner with investors, or Face Book. etc...

The biggest point I want to make, is that Wikicredentials Could still be Earned at home, ( internet connect. ) ....while Sheltering in place, during an event such as an economic collapse, Massive inflation or natural disaster etc..All these scenarios are possible, look at modern facts of current reality.

People would still be getting educated, instead of sitting around basket-cased. This is thinking ahead.

We must Think Big, and Not impose the Hinderances of "Limitation" or "distortion" to our Thinking. There are Multiple Variations, Additions and simplifications, to these ideas.

Thanks, I would like to hear every question imaginable in regards to this, even Wikiversity itself is Built by asking Questions --Gaon Abhinava 01:15, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


 * There are two kinds of costs which would be recovered by fees, or which must be recovered through other means, such as donations. There are overhead costs, and per-student costs. The per-student costs in real programs probably exceeds, and may exceed greatly, the overhead costs. If you had a billion students, and you were providing them with something worthwhile in terms of a degree, those students require individual attention. The alternative would be a fully automated system, and that is a huge problem all its own. Yeah, with a fully automated system, the per-student cost might be quite low. $2, however, would hardly cover processing costs for the payments!
 * There are, again, two components to a degree program: providing the study materials and other access to education itself (including personal attention), and validating the student's participation and grasp of the material. Neither one of these lends itself well to automation. For starters, how does one verify that it was the student who read the material and not someone else, or perhaps the student had the page open, but never actually read it!
 * That can be addressed with testing, but, consider this: there are professional testing companies, and to gain certain kinds of licenses, you have to take these standardized tests, which are administered in sites all around the U.S., and I don't know about the rest of the world. A test might cost $100 or more to take. The companies make money, for sure, but they also have to provide not only the tests, but monitors to ensure that students personally take the test, having provided identification, and that nobody helped them with answers.
 * It can be done, sure. But it's a huge operation *in the real world,* not merely something on a web site! --Abd 20:58, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Questions and Answers
 ( Q ) 


 * What does "credential" mean to you? What does "WikiCredential" mean to you? What do you consider to be the differences and similarities between "credential" and "WikiCredential"? -- dark lama  15:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikicredentials would be the equivalent of Bachelors,Associates, Masters and Docters degrees, Along with Re-Certifications and continuing education amongst the many occupations that exist in the Global workforce.


 * The Similarities between Credentials and WikiCredentials = They are both Evidence or testimonials concerning one's right to credit, confidence, or authority.


 * The Differences Between Credentials and WikiCredentials =  WikiCreds are Free to earn by effort, Traditional Credentials cost thousands of dollars.
 * Gaon Abhinava 20:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There is an incorrect idea. Traditional credentials don't necessarily "cost thousands of dollars." For example, I know a woman who just got certification in gifted education. She actually had two forms of qualification: she'd taken a certain number of credits, and that did cost money, but she also had assistance in paying it, in fact, she actually ended up with cash in her pocket, though it was loans. Those loans were subsidized, and, in fact, may end up being forgiven, depending on what she does with the education. And she wanted to take those classes, because they were being offered by experts in the field at a major university. Who paid the salaries of those experts!
 * Further, she could get the credential merely by passing the test, and while that test cost well over $100 to take, she applied for and received a low-income exemption, I think she paid far less.
 * But some credentials do, almost inherently, cost a lot of money. For example, we want physicians to be credentialled, and those programs are lengthy and rigorous. Huge resources are invested in the training of a physician. Now, if you are going to have surgery, would you want your physician to be "credentialed" by Wikiversity?
 * I'm not saying it is impossible, but I want you to grasp the enormity of the problem.
 * If you are going to hire an accountant, for your company, what kind of "credential" would you want to see? I can tell you what real company officers want. They want to see that the accountant graduated from an accredited program.
 * You haven't yet understood, perhaps, what accreditation is. Students aren't accredited, schools are. An accredited school can issue degrees that will be recognized. There are actually many different accrediting agencies, and they are regulated. It's very important for the public welfare that they be!
 * There are "diploma mills," colleges that give out degrees for cheap. Some of them not so cheap! But the degrees are next to worthless. There are fake "accreditation mills," accrediting agencies, often a diploma mill will start one up, or a number of diploma mills cooperating. Some "diploma mills" are actually legitimate schools, in some way or other. I've seen one school that was accused of being a diploma mill, that may even have been one, that was bought by an investor who seems to have cleaned it up, and won accreditation from a real agency.
 * This is the bottom line: no school accredits itself, except in terms of accepting completion of their own programs as a prerequisite for more advanced programs. Some major universities have what might be considered a cooperative, a regional accrediting agency that polices its members. There are problems with this, as one might imagine, but these are truly major schools, sensitive to their own reputations, so they don't allow things to get too far off course.
 * Wikiversity cannot make a decision to be "accredited." It could, perhaps, make a decision to seek accreditation, but it must have the programs in place first, with real students and real process. Genuine accrediting agencies don't issue full accreditation based only on plans. They have to have something to audit!
 * So how do schools get started? Well, it takes courage, on the part of the schools and of the students. A student who enrolls in a school and who does all the course work in a non-accredited program is risking that the program will not gain accreditation.

Accreditation itself is not cheap. Those accrediting agencies have to pay staff, and investigators. --Abd 21:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Would something like Wikimaster on wikieducator fit the bill?Leutha 17:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, Wikimasters can earn WikiCreds.... I see your point, Wikimasters have a virtual Certification, which is the same Idea I'm Getting at.--Gaon Abhinava 01:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * --Gaon Abhinava 20:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Those credentials -- they are credentials -- are based on on-wiki work, and they are issued as a certification of proficiency in that work. That page has not been edited for six months. At last report, nobody had been certified at the two top levels, which are "under development." These credentials are "peer credentials." Certain kinds of peer credentials like this might have some value to someone trying to get a job. Probably not these credentials, but maybe. If the job you wanted involved editing MediaWiki wikis, maybe it would help. --Abd 22:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think the Wikimaster programme illustrates some of the problems, and the slow progress shows that people are often to caught up in other priorities to concentrate on it. Onthe other hand the glass is over half full with four out of the six levels working. We could transclude the material here, so that we have a parallel system of accreditation, and possibly negotiate mutual recognition. Wikimaster is limited to media-wiki skills, but that is also because it serves as a way of drawing people into developing wiki-based teaching material, and indeed for the higher levels it calls for actual course delivery. I also like the idea that to gain the higher levels you need to help other people - a form of sweat equity. I feel progress in this area might be a useful first step. I feel a modular approach is most appropiate if we are not to be completely daunted by tasks which are too expansive.Leutha 06:16, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * We should be clear. The Wikimaster program has nothing to do with accreditation, which would be about independent accrediting agencies recognizing a school as awarding certifications of merit, usable officially by governments and employers. Wikimaster is a system of peer recognition, and I'd agree that there might be some utility here, but the question would be what it means, i.e., does it have any practical effect on the project? Mixing that up with "Wikicredentials," which, as a proposal, seems intended to provide a wiki equivalent to accredited degree programs, is putting the cart way ahead of the horse.
 * For us to offer accreditation, we would need three things
 * Adequate course offerings to form the basis for a degree program
 * Testing of students for completion
 * Approval of an accrediting agency for our procedures.
 * All of this requires a "governmental structure," a method of making clear and effective decisions, efficiently, with a reliable and responsible deciding authority. The accrediting agency will demand this as a condition of accreditation. They care about how schools do things. A program might be perfect today, but what if changes tomorrow? Accrediting agencies cannot continuously monitor what the schools do, so they want to see stability and responsible authority. Whether or not this can be done at all on a WMF wiki is an open question.
 * However, if the goal is free (or, more likely, cheap, affordable) degree programs, there is a much easier way, that accords with the organizational theory I've developed. An independent "school" is organized for the purpose, and it can use Wikiversity courses and other courses, and develop whatever structure it needs for decision-making. This school would structure itself to meet the requirements of accrediting agencies. This could be done, and I believe that Wikiversity would cooperate with it. Note: there could be more than one such school, but the more there are, the less efficient they may be, because resources will be divided. This is natural; attempts to require that there be only one school are actually harmful. Rather, schools have a natural motive to cooperate, if they are united in goal. And if they differ in goal, this is diversity in action. May the best goals win. That's how free societies work!
 * The problem here is a naive proposal to make Wikiversity into the school offering degrees. I don't like to say that anything is impossible, but, let's say, this brings up so many obstacles to be overcome that I doubt this is how it could be accomplished. Wikiversity can help set up such a school, we can study the possibility, and, of course, anyone may establish courses here, and we will cooperate with the needs of genuine courses, by allowing some level of page control, for example. We merely need to do that in accordance with overall neutrality policy.
 * One school's "correct" course may be another's "stupid orthodox ignorance of the true state of the field" course. We have inclusive methods of handling controversy like this here. A school may point to a specific page for its course, that page being placed neutrally in a hierarchy, with a school representative or teacher being given effective admin privilege over that page and subpages. The overall presentation must be neutral. Individual pages here, particular those which don't dominate mainspace title position, don't have to be neutral, they may represent opinion, even fringe opinion, and original research is allowed and even encouraged. An instructor in a course in college is not required to source and prove every statement made in class, they have freedom of speech, an aspect of academic freedom. --Abd 17:39, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Treatise : The Genius of Wikicredentials, Offered by Wikiversity.-- by Gaon Abhinava 21:05, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Satisfy the World's hunger for Knowledge.

Students are oppressed with the burden of tuition, Wikicredentials can change that....We have everything we need to make it a reality. People around the World are Hungry for Accredited Education, to refuse the idea of Wikicredentials, is like pushing a wheelbarrow full of Bread, and refusing to give a starving man a Crumb, for his lack of money.

Moving to a positive note, In this Treatise, we will discuss The practical effectiveness of Wikicredentials, which would produce an Educational Utopia, as Wikiversity's Global Innovation, thus, tipping the wheel barrow of bread over, for the man to eat... and his family, and his neighbors.

Behold...this is the Genius of Wikicredentials.-- Gaon Abhinava 02:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Who is pushing the "wheelbarrow full of bread and refusing to give a starving man a crumb?" Wouldn't I have to have the bread first before I could give it to someone? There are no accredited wikis, period. There are some accredited institutions which use wikis for part of their program. They are responsible for what they use and how they use it, responsible to their accrediting agency. --Abd 22:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Questions... are The steps of the Stair Case of 'Knowledge'
 ( Q ) 

Is the withholding of Free Educational accreditation a form of Oppression for the Students who Cannot afford Tuition?

 ( A ) 

Maybe, maybe not, but they still can't afford tuition. Freedom of Education is a Human right, and I believe Free accreditation should be also. Wikicredentials could ensure that Poverty and economic recession will not effect an individual's opportunity to achieve an Accredited Education. It is no secret that This Idea will Advance the World For Good.

WikiCredentials would Promote Global Innovation, Co-Operation and Understanding between human cultures. Below are the comparisons of Reason that support Wikicredentials..--Gaon Abhinava 02:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Advantages, Wikiversity Without accreditation
1) Less Pressure to meet educational demands and time lines for scores and accuracy, this way, fear of failure will not hinder a students learning.

( My Response : Scores and accuracy are the only way to track personal development, The Mind Advancing from "Level (1)" -to- "Level (2)".... And Wikicreds. could be Fully self-paced, Producing Less pressure and Less "fear of failure".... Fyi, It is impossible to be void of this fear, regardless.) --Gaon Abhinava 03:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Dis-Advantages, Wikiversity Without accreditation
1)There is Less motivation to Learn, if there is No Award, and No Accreditation.

2) There would be Less People Learning.

3) It seems to be an Imposed Limitation on The Minds of STUDENTS to NOT give Credentials, or not reward their hard study. Given the fact that Goals, and personal Mind development, would both Increase with the student's Acheivement of WikiCredentials. Every Student's Mind Development would be progressive and measurable, this is obvious, and This freedom of education would produce Enormous Enthusiasm among students and teachers alike.

--Gaon Abhinava 03:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Consider this proposal, Gaon: You establish a certificate-granting institution. It will cost you a little money, but you can use the bread in your wheelbarrow, or you can solicit donations. When a student here completes a course, you will send them a certification, a credential, a "diploma." You can probably get the fancy paper for less than a dollar a certificate, and you would have mailing costs, you could charge a small fee to issue the credential. How about that?
 * If that wouldn't do what you want, I'd suggest you look at exactly why!
 * Seriously, done right, this could work. But what would "done right" mean? --Abd 22:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Advantages, WikiCredentials Offered by Wikiversity.
1) Anyone with sustained Internet access can earn the Equivalent of an associates, bachelors etc...

2)The world may be become a difficult place in the future, to try and physically go to college by way of transportation. Wikicredentials would make earning an educational degree easier in the events of " sheltering in place "  and  " lack of tuition ". etc...

3) The students and Teachers at Wikiversity could closely moniter and edit the educational material, making sure it is accurate and promotes the well being of students. ( free from malicious, historical information distortion, or manipulation ) This would make Wikicredentials and Wikiversity more appealing, and more Attended by the mass populace of humans.

4) Your own personal Wikicreds. Can be Fully customizable, and Fully Self-paced upon your request, Based upon your Preference, Interests and Mental Capacity. This gives you more Freedom, to choose what you want to learn.--Gaon Abhinava 03:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Dis-advantages, WikiCredentials Offered by Wikiversity.
1) It may take away the profits from colleges and Institutions, being that they are very expensive and Wikicredentials are Free to earn......

( This is Dis-advantages for Them, Not the students, Wikiversity could be an educational Utopia, Conveniently Saving Students Time and Thousands of Dollars, obviously Wikicreds. will have great economic effect, among other effects. )--Gaon Abhinava 03:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, a modest proposal. We will give away free automobiles. Really, everyone wants and needs transportation. We could save the planet by only giving away green-technology cars, perhaps solar-powered. This is obviously better than the existing system, but, of course, it will take away the profits of the corporations that presently make cars and sell them for thousands of dollars. Think how much money people will save! That money will be available to improve people's lives, the whole world will benefit. Right?
 * Now, which is easier, to build a car or to build an educational system? Which will take more work? --Abd 22:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Questions
What limitations or Rules are in place that would prevent Wikicredentials?

Why are they in place?

Why Not have Wikicredentials? --Gaon Abhinava 00:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I do not think it is a matter of any rules preventing this, but rather the amount of work required to bring it in to being.Leutha 21:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Precisely. We don't have developed wikieducation yet, just some pieces of it, much less a process that could even begin to grant credentials. It's not that it is against the rules, exactly. It's not that it's impossible. It's that the gap between the idea and the reality is so far that putting much effort into what WikiCredentials would look like is way premature.
 * Here is what could be done immediately, and which will be done, I expect: develop systems for efficient wiki decision-making that will rapidly maximize genuine consensus so that they will function effectively within the standard operational rules of WMF wikis. (If you can find or create consensus, almost anything is possible.) Any credentialing system will require solid and reliable decision-making.
 * My opinion is that a credentialing system, to work, will need to operate independently. It will be responsible to the accrediting agency, it will need its own funding, etc. Probably it will be a nonprofit corporation, but it will work in collaboration with the community here, as well as that on other wikis and educational resources, including, perhaps, Wikieducator. --Abd 22:31, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

To be Concluded...

__________________________________________________________________________________________________ The Wikicredentials Logo: The Wheel Barrow of Bread tipped over, for the Man to eat

" Experience is the Father of all knowledge, Self-expression the mother, and Philosophy their grandchild. "--Gaon Abhinava 02:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)